Mark Millar on his 2K work - "pure shite"

[locustsofdeath!]

Ritual I can agree with. Magic, no.

I feel (not to sound pretentious) that every time I sit to write I'm performing a ritual. All of my stories or scripts have to be very lyrical, almost prose poems, so a certain type of atmosphere lends a lot to what I want to accomplish. I also tend to "black out" as you've described. I do suppose in a sense that can be considered "magical"...

[Matt Timson]

as I've always understood it, as a term, is used to describe something mysterious that has caused an effect in the physical or mental realm and I think we can all attest to witnessing that on some level.

Hi Garageman- yeah, c'mon then! More grist to the mill!  Yep- re the above, that's what I thought it meant. And nope, nothing has ever "affected the physical or mental realm" that can't be explained by either physics, chemistry, biology or psychology. That's exactly the woolly nonsense that I'm trying to challenge.

There are many who don't even consider psychology a proper science because it is so nebulous, vague and subjective, producing questionable results.

There may be people who don't consider psychology a science- but they are wrong, and possibly delusional.

Buuuuuut, I don't want to fight. All opinions welcome. Even the odd ones.

SBT

And thank goodness you're here to tell us which is which!
 

[Dog Deever]

People laugh at folk who believe in magic because "it's nonsense".
And then they believe in god, and that Jesus 'rose from the dead'*- which is also (IMO) utter shit.

If it makes folk happy and able to cope with real life, then it doesn't matter what they believe- as long as they leave other people alone. Magicky folk tend to do that a lot more than bible-thumpers, who drive me far more bananas than any magic-believer ever does. I might snigger in private at folk who believe in magic, but I certainly don't point and laugh at them.
After all- who really knows? People didn't believe in Chi (Qi), but IIRC it has now been scientifically measured.


*though not necessarily anyone here- I don't know, or care what, your spiritual beliefs are.

[Mikey]

that can't be explained by either physics, chemistry, biology,geology or psychology.

Just fixed that for you there  

From what I've just read the main thrust seem to be 'is magic paranormal?' Surely by definition it is? Doesn't mean it will never be explained, but right now it isn't.

I'd pretty much be in SBT block with this overall, but I'm truly fascinated by that part of the creative process where the artist doesn't feel conciously in control of their actions. I've never been much of an original creator (although I have plans!) but am familiar with that 'in the flow' feeling where insight or expression come seemingly automatically when working either at a desk or in the field.

Do 'new' artists experience the same thing or does it come with time? I'm tempted to say it happens after a time working in the chosen area.

M.

[Richmond Clements]

Ohhhh!

I've missed a bloody good conversation here!

My tuppence worth:

Jim is spot on in his description of the creative process. In full flow I amd not in control of what's being written. Characters 'decide' to take off in their own directions and have conversations with each other that I did not plan.
Magic? It's as good a word as any for it. And before anyone jumps on me for saying this- if you knew me at all you'd know just how little I believe in anything that could be labelled 'supernatural'.

As for Moore- my take on it (BTW do a searchon youtube for the backstage interview he did at the Carols for Unbelievers show just before Christmas. Listen to him talking about his 'god' there and then tell me he's serious) is that Moore does not believe in 'magic' as a force. Rather he believes in the idea of magic. And I don't want to sound patronising here-although I probably will anyway- but perhaps this is what 'non creative' folks (for want of a better name!) find hard to grasp?

[TordelBack]

Quote
that can't be explained by either physics, chemistry, biology,geology or psychology.

Just fixed that for you there  

Isn't geology just physics, chemistry and biology plus time?  Much like history, really.

[Mikey]

Pfft! Bloody archaeologists!

Everything is essentially physics and chemistry.

M

[Emperor]

Pfft! Bloody archaeologists!

Everything is essentially physics and chemistry.

I thought everything was essentially just maths.

[JayzusB.Christ]

My understanding was that it all came back to the 2000ad podcast.

I like Richard Dawkins; it's fair enough to say we don't know whether there's a god or not, but at least he (Richard, that is, not God) doesn't plug the gaps in his knowledge with unprovable and very unlikely hypotheses. If you want to read some truly arrogant atheistic literature, have a look at Christopher Hitchens' stuff.

That said, I have no problem if anyone else follows a religion, as long as they keep it out of politics and don't try to force it on anyone else.

Oh yeah, and I tried some of Grant Morrison's pop magic a few years ago during a fairly unhappy period of my life. Did it work? Me bollix, it did.  What worked was getting a job, meeting people and having a social life again.

[Zarjazzer]

Pfft! Bloody archaeologists!

Everything is essentially physics and chemistry.

I thought everything was essentially just maths.

I used to think it  was all atoms, but apparently everything is made up of strings...and multiple dimensions. Ow. No wonder people have fallen back on magic and God and other delusions.

[Dandontdare]

Scientist joke:

An astronomer, physicist and mathemetician are on a train going to a conference in Scotland. All the sheep they have seen so far have been white, but as they cross the border they see a black sheep in a field.

The astronomer says "from our observation, I deduce that the sheep in scotland are black"

The physiscist says, "no no, that's far too imprecise. All we can safely deduce is that some of the sheep in Scotland are black.

The mathemetician sighs at his colleagues' woolly thinking: "All we can really say is that at least one side of at least one sheep in Scotland appears to be black"


That one cracks up maths nerds.

[Emperor]

That one cracks up maths nerds.

And I always thought it was the "what does the mathematician do when he gets diarrhoea?" joke that did that.

[Mikey]

I thought everything was essentially just maths.

Aaargh! Not the sums with no numbers!

So does that mean that Mark Millar would describe his non 2k stuff as applied shite?

M

[Zarjazzer]

back on topic

look old big mouth strikes again.(No not me)

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/01/05/dc-comics-makes-legal-move-over-mark-millars-nemesis/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+BleedingCool+%28Bleeding+Cool+Comic+News+%26+Rumors%29&utm_content=Google+UK

[Mike Gloady]

Dawkins does himself and his cause no favours by adopting the same supercilious posture and straw man tactics as his sworn enemies.  However, when he's talking about the subject he actually knows about (evolution), he speaks with the passion of an evangelist and writes piercingly clearly and sometimes beautifully.    There's no doubt in my mind that had he been born 150 years ago he would have been a powerful champion of the established Church.  He's no Stephen Jay Gould, but I find myself buying all his books as they come out, and have done since the days of the Blind Watchmaker and The Selfish Gene.  

Me too.  Agreed on just about every comma and apostrophe.  

As to magic... this really has boiled down to a debate about semantics.  Our options as I see them:

(a). Magic = a metaphor or alternative paradigm (-shudder-) for exploring and interpreting the source and nature  of creativity and its effects in the world.  The Alan Moore camp.

(b).  Magic = a supernatural force wielded to affect the objective world in a manner contrary to scientifically derived laws.  The Dumbledore camp.

(c).  Magic = some guy in a bad toupee married to his assistant.  Just camp.

Pick one.

I think Steev is right in asserting that Option B is the dominant understanding of the word.  That doesn't mean that other people can't mean Option A when they use it.

Yeah, that's how this discussion seems to me as well - it's wordplay.  If you REALLY believe in B-type magic then I'm sorry, but I'm going to laugh at you and call you derranged (I feel precisely the same about religion so don't worry, no hypocrisy here).  If you believe in A-type magic, I'm going to think you're a pretentious so-and-so but if that's your creative process I'm not going to say it out loud.  Very often.

People laugh at folk who believe in magic because "it's nonsense".
And then they believe in god, and that Jesus 'rose from the dead'*- which is also (IMO) utter shit.

Don't worry, I think they're ALL batshit crazy.