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Author Topic: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?  (Read 1696 times)

BPP

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #45 on: 08 October, 2010, 09:43:18 PM »
i trust Tony Lee is at least thankful the weirdo he upset had separated his turds from his mini-nukes.
If I'd known it was harmless I would have killed it myself.

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Emperor

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #46 on: 08 October, 2010, 11:00:38 PM »
Another example of things that people can do: most of the big comic communities have threads on 2000AD so why not drop in and say "hi" or answer any questions someone might have or remind everyone when a jumping on issue is coming round.
See for example:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=302540
http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/showthread.php?230-2000-ad
http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=8776
http://forums.millarworld.tv/index.php?showtopic=90570

If there isn't one then you could think about starting one (just be sure to check the forum rules and make sure you put it in the right place) - look Broken Frontiers has nothing:

http://forum.brokenfrontier.com

And look at the empty waste of the most recent 2000AD thread at Newsarama - it makes Emperors sad :( :

http://www.newsarama.com/common/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=12480

One of the recurring things that seems to crop (after "is it still going?") is people don't know where to start - you can share a bit of Hivemind knowledge, help people out and Spread the Word.

There will be a few more trailers coming up and I'll be spreading them around a bit but it can't hurt if people know of somewhere that might add it and throw them the link.
« Last Edit: 08 October, 2010, 11:10:20 PM by Emperor »
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Dog Deever

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #47 on: 08 October, 2010, 11:07:38 PM »
It's a good idea in theory, but I think people get scared away from many forums because a lot are not at all like this one. One post in and you get the n00b treatment, it's probably why a lot of us congregate here only. I try to steer clear of most forums, I'm too easily provoked.
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Emperor

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #48 on: 09 October, 2010, 12:22:55 AM »
It's a good idea in theory, but I think people get scared away from many forums because a lot are not at all like this one. One post in and you get the n00b treatment, it's probably why a lot of us congregate here only. I try to steer clear of most forums, I'm too easily provoked.

Well I'm not saying everyone should do it (and just signing up on a forum and dropping in a thread promoting something might not be considered Good Form) but it is an option, as is rearranging the comics in WH Smiths or leaving a read copy on the bus for a passing stranger to pick up and read or donating old progs to a children's charity or standing in the street naked with "READ 2000AD" painted on yourself (although the last one is probably just CF).
if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

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Paul faplad Finch

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #49 on: 09 October, 2010, 01:30:02 AM »
Whenever I was on a shopping trip I'd buy a copy and leave it on the bus in the vain hope that someone would pick it up and read it before the cleaner binned it that night.

Can't afford multiple copies now though, but I do do the rearranging of racks thing - for Clint as well as twoth now. (No I don't put Clint with the comics, but rather I bring both forward to the front, and if possible into those plastic things that I can't think of the name of)

Also, whenever I leave the library having used their computers I leave the screen (not logged in with my password of course) on this site or one of Grants reviews or Rich's little interviews etc. so it's the first thing the next guy sees.

Chances of anyone actually reding it before clicking the old red x is minimal I know but what the hell, it's worth a try.

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Kev Levell

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #50 on: 09 October, 2010, 10:43:12 AM »
It was not my intention to start a censorship debate and I think that perhaps my initial post could have been worded better.
Without a regular letters page in the prog, the review threads, I suspect, are a pretty important place for Tharg to glean information about what is and isn't working for the readership... so I would never suggest not voicing your opinion.

My core concept was to try to get people thinking about when they could put a positive spin on things, moreover, I wanted to sow the seed that they too could promote the comic in the vein of the endeavours of others.
Perhaps my post doesn't really say that. Perhaps I was preaching (to the converted), so sorry if that's how it seemed.

I think you can interpret the first post in a number of ways, and on re-reading it, I can see the ways in which I wish it hadn't been taken, I think it's symptomatic of a tendency on internet forums of finding disagreement where there isn't any, but that's actually a good thing because it has provoked such lively debate.

Lively, and friendly debate as is in evidence here is great, but when it's less than polite, as occasionally experienced, that's not cool, not by a long way, and that's when it's better to say nothing at all, which could be construed as censorship, but to my mind is simply self editing, something as adults, we should be capable of.

Dunk!

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #51 on: 09 October, 2010, 01:16:27 PM »
Mass debate good.
"Trust we"

Dog Deever

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #52 on: 09 October, 2010, 02:27:37 PM »
Any creators who feel they can't suffer to visit the forum because of negativity would do well to read the interview with Jim Lee in Comic Heroes #3. He has very sensible things to say about it, which I won't replicate here- that would be unfair to the magazine.
Toughen up people- your work is in the public eye, the public will comment, regardless of their level of analysis. This board has many creators of differing levels on it, we have to analyse what we do in far greater depth than a casual reader- it's part of the process and is the way forward for continual improvement. It's very easy to forget the simple fact that readers don't need to look that deeply, and are certainly under no obligation to. At the end of the day, if you cannot ignore negativity, then perhaps you are simply not cut out for public exposure. It really does come down to that.

In any other creative walk of life, this is a fundamental truth. Try playing in a gigging band- people will shout all manner of abuse and throw stuff/ spit etc- I've even witnessed band members being physically assaulted after gigs. I bet Tips would tell you the same thing about comedy gigs. Why would comics people be any different? Living in a protective bubble is nice and safe, but it isn't real. If you're work isn't up to expectation, you are as well to know as early as possible.

It's also worth pointing out that the way you react to negativity is also in the public eye and will colour how people perceive you- because they don't really know you and likely never will. 'Creator X' had a big tiz at me and acted like a spoilt child throwing his dummy out (until that point I was a fan) but X's reactions to criticism lost all my respect and now I couldn't give a shit if I never saw his work again- In my mind, he's a dick, no matter what other people think of him.

I doubt anyone could honestly say they haven't dismissed something as 'utter shit'- I've lost count of the number of times I've chanted 'You're shit, and you know you are' at other teams and verbally abused opposition players and refs/ linesmen at matches, including disparaging their lineage and gene pool. And yes, they can and do hear. That is what happens and is normal and acceptable behaviour in football.
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uncle fester

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #53 on: 09 October, 2010, 02:54:44 PM »
I don't think any comic creator would really say negative reviews are unacceptable, Deever. It's probably more to do with the one-line reviews simply saying "it's shit" but not saying WHY. That sort of response IS rude. That it is commonplace doesn't make it acceptable. It is more of a damning indictment of what is tolerated today because we've let it happen.

Band and comedy gigs are different. As is a footie match. Invariably the audience has had a lot of alcohol and feel that they can do it better than the people in the firing line. That's not exactly the same as reading a story in 2000AD. 

Sorry for the caps. Can't do italics from here.

Proudhuff

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #54 on: 09 October, 2010, 04:06:07 PM »


Calm down our dog, Calm Down!
I will name him Tharg, and I will hug him and pet him and squeeze him.

The Legendary Shark

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #55 on: 09 October, 2010, 04:36:32 PM »
So far in my comic scripting dabblings I've had two stories published ("War of the Worlds" with George Coleman (A) and Bolt-01 (L) in FutureQuake #15 and "Jikan: Second Sun" with Dave Candlish (A) and Matt Brown (L)in Paragon #6), so I thought I'd give a n00b's perspective on the old "it's just shit" debate.

I'm guessing I'm like most creators in that I'm not going to submit a script that I'm not proud of to anybody. I don't mean that in an arrogant way. There are many scripts I write that I am not proud of, most of which just get deleted. If my inner critic is proud of what I've rote, then I'll submit it. Just because I'm proud of something, though, doesn't mean it isn't rhubarb. Here then comes the second critic, the editor.

I have been very lucky so far with my editors at FQP and Paragon in that their criticisms have been both supportive and instructive. This kind of criticism, from people with a wider experience and greater skill than myself, is invaluable to me. As part of the collaborative process, I feel this editorial criticism is vital to making the script as good as it can possibly be.

After this come criticisms from the artist which, again, are vital to the processes of both honing the strip itself and also my continued learning and, hopefully, improvement. (I find that in the best collaborations criticisms go both ways twixt writer and artist at this stage.)

I've never yet had any critical discourse with a letterer, which I think is odd. Lettering is often overlooked in this medium, which I think is a crying shame, and I think that discussions about lettering style are equally as important as discussions about art style or dialogue.

So, you've had all this criticism before your story even sees print. This is purely from a n00b viewpoint, remember, but I'd imagine that in the professional world this criticism is just as useful/stressful. The next criticism, however, is the most important of all: The readers' reviews.

When "War of the Worlds" was published in FutureQuake 15, I was ecstatic. The art was beautiful, the lettering perfect and, apart from a few globs of clumsy writing, it's one of the things in my life of which I am most proud. Not necessarily for the story itself, which could have been written better, but because it's my First Published Strip. Once I'd received my precious Contributor's Copy, I waited by the 'phone with a big smile on my face, fully expecting to hear from Tharg or Stan Lee who would be sending a helicopter for me with unseemly haste. There would be adoring fans and Eagle nominations, tickertape parades and ribbon-cutting ceremonies at supermarkets.

Of course, none of that happened. In fact, nobody said anything much. My friends all told me they enjoyed it, and a few people in the Yap Shop, which was kind of them and much appreciated. I will admit to being disappointed at not having that strip reviewed by readers as I wanted to hear their opinions (good and bad) about it. Praise is enjoyable for the soul and criticism is nourishing for the mind. We all want to be praised, except maybe Roger, it's a basic human desire to be accepted and loved. I'm not too far removed from my humanity to admit that I want my work to be praised too. Of course I do, but I want it to be praised for being good. If it isn't good, I want the criticism so I can work on getting praise for the future. All very selfish, I know, but people don't praise rhubarb, do they? And who wants to write rhubarb?

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes...

Paragon #6 came out a couple of weeks ago and the Emperor pointed me to a couple of actual reviews in little out-of-the-way web-nooks. These two reviews, though short, were generally quite positive about both the comic and its contributors. I was so proud of my first review, even though it was less than a dozen words, that I posted a link to it on my Facebook page! I was happy because "quite positive" means "not shit," and "not shit" is realistically the best thing I can hope for at this early stage in my comic scripting forays.

What comes next for me (if you are still awake and reading this rambling essay with your sanity intact) is the Big One. I have written "Flesh: Extinction Book I: Myths, Legends and Lies" for the imminent issue of Zarjaz. Chris Geary's art is stunning and I think the story and characters are strong. Fans of the movie "True Grit" may get something a little extra out of it. Bolt-01 writes, "this is the longest single story ever presented in Zarjaz- a whopping 24 pages." So, no pressure then. Gulp.

So, dragging myself kicking and screaming back to the actual point, what do I want for "Flesh: Extinction," criticism wise? Well, of course I want as many people as possible to like it. I know some won't, but I guess that's inevitable. If more people like it than dislike it, I'll be happy. But that's only one side of the equation. Even the people who like it won't like it all. Constructive reader criticism at this time will be both nerve-wracking and, hopefully, informative. The better my critics, the better my writing, the greater the enjoyment for the reader, the more praise I get. Everybody wins!

However, given the stages of criticism I mentioned earlier added to the reasoned criticisms of thoughtful readers I think there's enough meat to feed both ego and experience. That said, the "it's just shit" comment can also be useful. Many people aren't aware that stories have definite shapes (Jaws, Alien, Predator and Cape Fear are all roughly the same story told in different ways) and characters (Merlin providing King Arthur with magical weapons is entirely similar to Q giving Bond his laser watch and invisible Aston Martin). If these shapes or characters are somehow mishandled, the reader may instinctively grasp this malformation without necessarily understanding it. "It's just shit" is possibly a very fundamental and useful lay-criticism, especially if taken alongside more forensic opinions. So, in my view, it's all useful - even angry rantings betray a deep nerve being pinched in the reader, which can also be useful feedback.

The next issue of Zarjaz is debuting at BICS, I believe, so maybe my attitude to criticism will change soon after!
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Emperor

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #56 on: 09 October, 2010, 05:08:39 PM »
Paragon #6 came out a couple of weeks ago and the Emperor pointed me to a couple of actual reviews in little out-of-the-way web-nooks.

Just to clarify, Comics Bulletin is one of the biggest and longest running comics review sites out there, but they also have some of the widest review coverage of any of the high profile sites. So it is pretty nifty that we get on there and I've found Kelvin's reviews to be solid (and helpful for me) and I'm not just saying that because he is on here ;)
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John Caliber

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #57 on: 09 October, 2010, 05:50:51 PM »
Quote
I've never yet had any critical discourse with a letterer, which I think is odd. Lettering is often overlooked in this medium, which I think is a crying shame, and I think that discussions about lettering style are equally as important as discussions about art style or dialogue.

I love great lettering. John Workman, John Costanza etc, are among the 'old school' greats who remain unmatched for exciting lettering which functions also to augment the power of the artwork. There's certainly been a decline in its potential since it was all computerised, with any old Tom, Dick or Sally copying/pasting script text into circles or boxes and slapped wherever there is a gap in the artwork...

I love the ease that computer lettering brings, but, using YouTube as a parallel, opening the video field to amateurs and allowing them to post alongside truly professional efforts lowers the tone of the medium considerably. Is this loss of appreciation for the letterer the reason why editors commission so much lacklustre work, that they think any standard is THE standard?

I'm annoyed to see the Letterer's credit in the Megazine reprint supplements placed at the bottom of the credits list; it belongs up with the writer/artist. The Letterer might be said to be closer to the station of the writer than the artist. I think Simon Bowland is by far the best letterer to have worked for modern era 2000AD since Tom Frame very sadly left us. Increase the Bowland droid's rations, I say!  :D
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Dog Deever

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #58 on: 09 October, 2010, 06:24:25 PM »
To put things into perspective: Dimebag was shot and killed onstage, Rotten got razored, Steve Cook got his head opened with a metal bar, Vicious got a beer glass thrown in his face, one of the Ramones was put in a coma. Someone saying your work is shit doesn't even register on the aggro scale next to that!
I'm not saying it's right or desirable, but it's reality- it's going to happen and you need to develop a coping mechanism.
For me, someone taking the time to tell me my work is shit would be a step up! I suspect it's the same experience for most of us in the small press, where we come and go with little notice.
C'est la vie- deal with it.
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Bolt-01

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Re: CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?
« Reply #59 on: 10 October, 2010, 09:20:05 AM »
Well that was a great way to start the day! I've been merely dipping into the forum for a few weeks but today I'd got a brew, my cereals and decided to have a read of a good thread.

This thread should be held up as an example of how the Internet CAN have a reasoned debate and discussion. No fighting, no name calling! It's great!

I can also see both sides to this. Personally I think we, as long term commentators, should be prepared to give more than 'it's shit' if called upon it, and that behaviour from us will encourage others to do the same.