1278 continued...

[Leigh S]

Given this thread mutated, I thought I'd revive it here...  Bits in quotes from Nathans original post...


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The Storming Heaven cover is once again a fantastic image.  The strip itself was beautiful to look at but ultimately didn't have anything to say - in 45 pages, Trips sets up a psychedelic paradise, Caliban wrecks it, Caliban gets done over.  2000ADs equivalant of a supermodel - gorgeous but vacuous.

The Dredd is another below par effort from Alan Grant, which contains a couple of real no-nos.  Dredd is seen about to execute a perp and then recommending torturing him.  These grate for a number of reasons:

Both are pretty well established as totally illegal.  I know Alan likes to paint Dredd as a bastard, but the idea that the Judges will keep mass murderers alive (in suspended animation if needs be)just so they can serve their sentence is surely even more sadistic and relentless. Plus the fact that finding out why they did it before pulling the trigger would be a good idea!

The mask revelation is a bit weird - the perp shows no surprise about Dave having been in disguise.  

The idea of the Darwin Society had a lot of potential.  IIRC, the Darwin awards are given out to people who kill themselves in incredibily stupid ways.  It would have been more "Mega-Cityish", imaginative and funnier if the Society had littered the city with obvious death traps and let natural selection take its course rather than just shoot people.  PJ Holdens art is pretty good though, and has it's own style that given time could become a real winner.

"Shakara looks great too, but Morrison hasn't given Flint as much to work with as Irving has had from Rennie. And while I'm comparing the two, Storming Heaven wins hands down on the story front too. Shakara has neither the atmosphere or density of ideas with which Rennie has laced Storming Heaven."

I have to take the opposite view here - Storming Heaven has a superb central premise, but fails to capitalise on it, instead opting for a 'faceless, generic "gonna eat your face" bad guys kill faceless, generic good guys' plot.  Shakara has yet to develop, but the script has given Flint the opportunity to draw some fantastic images that are as much Morrisons as Flints (the last scene of this prog for example).  While it has posed more questions than it has answered, it has at least posed questions, the answers to which I'm still interested in, despite little by way of explanation so far.

Agree about the future shocks - these are utterly pointless - by all means print FS by new writers where the quality is high enough, but to fill week after week with these tired old re-runs just isn't on.  Hopefully, the new editorial crew will have the time and resources to get commissions a little more in advance, so that when a story falls through (like Dante?), there won't be a rush to fill the vacuum.  

[Dean]

On an earlier thread I was very critical of the characterisation on Storming Heavens and I said I would re read the whole book in one go which I have done.

I must say that the artwork & the covers inparticular have been the business, I look forward to posters being available in due course (with the 2000ad logo & copy present).

The premise and the whole idea behind the series is also a very strong one drawing on a number of psychedelic sources, I liked the reference quotes throughout.

But

I still feel a little bit removed from the whole thing. We had lots of groovy named heroes and regret at their passing and I guess we'll never see the like again, actually we never saw their like in the first place.

Solution

I think the story could form a wonderful backdrop to some continued stories, yes we know what happened in global terms but what happened to the 'little people' in the story.

Also the 'utopia' reached at the end is an LSD based utopia, very 60's. What about the ecstacy based utopia which would no doubt follow on (copyright Dean), how would the psychedelic generation come to terms with the 'dance' generation pictured towards the end of the story.

Come on Scojo there's a story or two left in this one, over to you.

[Dean]

Sorry re last entry, by dance generation I mean those youngsters born since 1967 in the story who may have grown up and may have taken different routes for their development. There aren't any e'd up people pictured in the story.

I really should re read my typing before hitting the 'post message' button

Does anybody have a clue about what I'm on about, pass me another Gin.

[Thread Zero]

Eh me? Who do you think I am Gordon hippy Rennie!
Dean, your line....

We had lots of groovy named heroes and regret at their passing and I guess we'll never see the like again, actually we never saw their like in the first place.

...is brilliant. Sums up the problem with the story perfectly.

How would I do it?

Well I guess I would cheat and use Zenith as the model. In other words concentrate on the main (is she the main?) character Amy, say before she becomes the superhero. This battle between Charlie Manson and the hippy superheroes should be in book 2 or 3.

Book one should be an introduction in which we are introduced to Dr Trips. Perhaps Caliban should not even be in it. Merely hinted at.

The whole series should build up and end on a real cliffhanger with many questions left unanswered.

Of course if you did it that way and the story was unpopular and cancelled after one series, you would never find out!

So I guess you can't win!

As for the story, I have no problems with it set in the 1960's. Although it could easily be updated to the present day or even the future. New designer drugs could be incorporated. Designer drugs that are genetically modified for example.
Heightened senses, such as extra sensory perception, mind control, telekinesis etc could be a by-product of such drugs.
Maybe that would have been a better inspiration than LSD.

Scojo

[Dean]

Scojo
Now we're buzzing, Amy would definitely be a good central figure since we know more about her than anyone. I'd probably focus on some of the people who were normal 9-5 people but were then transformed, but were then sacrificed.

I'd also take a look at the 'straights' ie not groovy or bad, just square. Whenever you see old clips of the 'Summer of Love' they are there usually wearing knitted jumpers & NHS glasses.

Also as (i think it was PVS) noted what about the US, cant believe they would let it go although as revealed this prog they were in Charlies gang anyway. (would R Kennedy have been though)

Finally the GM designer drugs side of things is exactly what I was getting at. How would the hippy crew react to these 'johnny come latelies'

You know the more I think about Storming Heavens the more I like it.

Any other ideas anyone or is this a dean scojo production (or scojo dean)

[fraston]

"Also the 'utopia' reached at the end is an LSD based utopia, very 60's. What about the ecstacy based utopia which would no doubt follow on (copyright Dean), how would the psychedelic generation come to terms with the 'dance' generation pictured towards the end of the story. "

i think the point was, that seeing as the whole world became "groovy" at the end that situations such as the modern era as we know it (incorporating punk, the dance generation, extacy, hollywood blockbusters, the fall of communism etc) wouldn't in fact have happened.

after all, if all bad vibes are wiped out, then let's face it: the world would be NOTHING like it is today.

[fraston]

"Designer drugs that are genetically modified for example.
Heightened senses, such as extra sensory perception, mind control, telekinesis etc could be a by-product of such drugs. "


they already are.


and i know what you're doing scojo.


stop it.

we have eyes everywhere.

[nathan]

"and i know what you're doing scojo.
stop it"

Yes, Scojo.
3 words.

Cat's Protection League


N

[Thread Zero]

What am I doing?????

scojo

[Dean]

mmm... I did wonder about that but do the bad vibes ever totally go away and if they didn't you have Storming Heavens Book 2

Another thought and I'm qualifying this by saying I've never taken hallucigenic drugs ( i'm not sure I can even spell it) but isn't it the case with good trips you believe you're in utopia, then you come down and you find you're not.

To be honest the whole story could have been a drug trip for Amy, Book 2 could even be called 'Coming Down'

I'm probably getting a bit intense here but as I said the whole premise behind Storming Heavens was very good.

[McNulty]

On the subject of Dredd...
I've got to agree with the watchful one here. Since when does Dredd shoot criminals who have surrendered? And Torture as a means of interegation? Not likely! This just isn't Dredd's character. He's a tough SOB, but Grant has him taking decisions that would have Wagner getting the Titan shuttle warmed up.
Grant has been getting Dredd to take some pretty suspect decisions of late - the bombing of the mutant settlement comes to mind. This seems to be where he's going at the moment.  

[paulvonscott]

I have actual video evidence of Alan Grant calling Judge Dredd a fascist bastard*, and it's obvious he hates him.  Not only that but he still thinks fans like Dredd the worse he behaves.  I think he may have had a point, 15 years ago.  But wake up and smell the synthi-synthi-caf Grant!  Kids aren't reading it any more.

More worryingly this makes two Grant stories in a row where he's ended on an extended cliff hanger in the hope of getting further material out of it further down the road.  I actually liked the skull faced bloke and unless it turns out to be the same person (which hopefully seems a bit unlikely) I think he's used this little device once too often.

But, to be fair, I'm always willing to be proved wrong.  If Alan can show me the goods, I will repent my sins.  No boot licking though okay?

Cheers

PVS

*I'm not saying he isn't :)

[2000AD Online]

Couldn't agree more. I've always thought of Dredd as an anti-hero who doesn't know any better, having been indoctrinated by the system since birth. An interesting facet of the film which it subsequently glossed over was that Joe embraced the Law whereas Rico embraced life. Right or wrong, the law must be adhered to.

Something the Judge apparently isn't doing much of lately.

[Thread Zero]

I think Alan Grant has completely lost the plot with Dredd.

Lol.

This week's Dredd, eh?

Was the guy the old man in a mask?

I assume so.

I didn't get it. Was that point? And it was a so what, who cares type story.

Bland bland bland.

Also Alan does not write any witty lines for Dredd or MC 1's characters anymore.

Wit is very important when writing Dredd. Well the more funny stories anyway.

scojo

[Wood]

Um, I've always preferred the 'fascist bastard' stories, personally.