Main Menu

Is this It For Ghostbusters Two....

Started by ThryllSeekyr, 19 February, 2016, 10:02:43 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Dark Jimbo

I assume you meant to type:

Quote from: Tordelback on 26 May, 2016, 03:41:51 PM
Vigo and his painting and the Scoleri Brothers are good. Everything else is dull.
@jamesfeistdraws

Professor Bear

Quote from: Tordelback on 26 May, 2016, 02:21:02 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 26 May, 2016, 02:16:29 PM
I am slightly troubled by the unchallenged assumption that people who think this will suck do so "because women", and not "because I have seen the trailer."

Is it not less of an assumption and more a generalisation based on reading endless comments to the effect of the former, even before the hopeless first trailer appeared?

Would that this were the case.  Sadly, there's seemingly a loud and vocal counter-movement dedicated to the idea that all criticism of the Ghostbusters remake stem from nothing but misogyny, rather than the slightly more plausible explanation that comedy might be a subjective experience.  It's all a bit thought-police-y.

Colin YNWA

But as Tordelback say SOOOO much of that criticism started prior to a single photo let alone, trailer being seen and misogyny was the clearly stated reason for that (well okay not stated but the intent was clear - even if half of the post I read would start 'I'm not sexist but...').

Now that doesn't in anyway shape or form invalidate someone looking at the current evidence and objectively saying - that looks a bit poo - (I don't think this by the way) - however the farcical levels of misogyny that surround this film can't and shouldn't be ignored AND there needs to be a vocal movement calling it out. Its been bloody ridiculous.

Its small sacrifice to therefore include in your criticism specific reasons (as would validate the criticism anyway) or expect to get caught up in the backlash.

Ghost MacRoth

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 26 May, 2016, 07:56:21 PM
But as Tordelback say SOOOO much of that criticism started prior to a single photo let alone, trailer being seen and misogyny was the clearly stated reason for that

Perhaps, but there's also the fact that before a trailer or pic was released, the film was promoted on the gender flip alone, which is of course gonna lead to a general reaction of.... 'why??'.  The production company then using this as a base of promotion by highlighting all 'misogynist' comments and sidelining all others didn't help either. 
I don't have a drinking problem.  I drink, I get drunk, I fall over.  No problem!

Professor Bear

It's also a bit rich for a Hollywood studio to lecture people about the treatment of women.

IndigoPrime

Quote from: Ghost MacRoth on 26 May, 2016, 08:49:32 PMwhich is of course gonna lead to a general reaction of.... 'why??'.
Which is depressing in itself, because the response should be: why not? (I'm not levelling this at you, note, but society as a whole.) It's really depressing having a young daughter swamped with male-dominated media—even in children's books, the vast, vast majority of the characters are male. So reworking a few old films and flipping the balance? Sure. Go for it.

Ghost MacRoth

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 May, 2016, 09:07:40 PM
Which is depressing in itself, because the response should be: why not?

Perhaps you're right, but I'd say there's nothing wrong with questioning a change* when there seems no reason for it bar a marketing ploy.  :(

*Beyond questioning it just for the sake of 'wimmin, oh no's!!!!'
I don't have a drinking problem.  I drink, I get drunk, I fall over.  No problem!

TordelBack

McRoth has a point about studio hypocrisy, but like Indigo I have a young daughter and a rebalancing of action roles seems like a good and necessary step to me.

The Star Wars flicks are a good example: we've had six films effectively headed up by two pairs of blokes with a girl in an admittedly meaty third role. Now it looks like we'll have three with both a female and male lead, and a fourth with what looks like a female lead and almost exclusively male supporting cast. Seems like a start, but only that.

Two all-male GB teams, one all-female. And?


IndigoPrime

I don't see it as a marketing ploy per se, and even if it is, I don't care. Even fucking Paw Patrol is five 'boy' dogs and one 'girl' (who wears pink, is tiny, is support, and has the shittest vehicle). Even her kiddie books are more often than not fathers/sons or male characters. I'm pretty sick of it. It needs to stop.

Quote from: Tordelback on 26 May, 2016, 09:28:24 PMThe Star Wars flicks are a good example
When Mrs G and I watched the originals a few years ago, we'd forgotten quite how Smurfette Leia was. The Force Awakens was better, but even that made loads of people lose their shit (despite the main characters being a young bloke, an old bloke, a hairy bloke, and a woman).

Definitely Not Mister Pops

Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 26 May, 2016, 07:56:21 PM

Its small sacrifice to therefore include in your criticism specific reasons (as would validate the criticism anyway) or expect to get caught up in the backlash.

You shouldn't have to prove you're not sexist. That's proving a negative. I think the trailer makes the movie look bad. That is not a sexist statement.
You may quote me on that.

Colin YNWA

Quote from: Mister Pops on 27 May, 2016, 04:04:53 AM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 26 May, 2016, 07:56:21 PM

Its small sacrifice to therefore include in your criticism specific reasons (as would validate the criticism anyway) or expect to get caught up in the backlash.

You shouldn't have to prove you're not sexist. That's proving a negative. I think the trailer makes the movie look bad. That is not a sexist statement.

Interesting that you say that with a quote that says nothing about proving you're not sexist, but just validating your reasons for not liking it, as you probably should in any circumstance anyway.

TordelBack

#146
Pops is correct though, you shouldn't have to prove you're not a sexist, that being largely impossible. I'd be pretty sure from their online output that people like Pops, McRoth and the Bear aren't evil sexists.  However, when entering a discussion or context which already has a large cloud of sexism hovering over it, it's no harm to clearly state your position. If that means prefacing remarks with a tedious teeth-grinding "I've no problem with female Ghostbusters, but..." that's maybe a toll we have to pay on a road worth travelling.

TordelBack

Quote from: Tordelback on 27 May, 2016, 07:07:14 AM
...that's maybe a toll we have to pay on a road worth travelling.

<Cue rousing opening bars of the SJW Anthem "My gender 'tis of thee">

What am I like. I plead oxygen starvation from my morning run, m'lud.

IndigoPrime

I don't think there's anything wrong with people criticising the material, the trailer, or even the people involved. We all have our personal tastes. Where it all derails is the moment people freak out because there's an all-female team. That hasn't really happened here, thankfully, which again showcases this forum as often being atypical in the geek sphere. (I've elsewhere seen a lot of "but why couldn't they have gone 50/50. Surely that's 'fair'?" whining, exclusively from men, which again utterly misses the point.)

(I also don't think you need the 'I'm not sexist' qualifier. Just some kind of qualifier is good as to why you don't like something. But that's the case with all criticism. Saying "Foo is shit" isn't useful. Saying "I think Foo is shit because the story is nonsensical, and they replaced the main character from the comics with a rabbit" is better.

Professor Bear

I'm not a sexist™, but I'd argue that Sony were hoping to get a misogynist response to aid their marketing campaign*.  The email leaks from a few years back shows exactly the kind of racist, misogynist studio they run, and the revelations about the Hillary Clinton nomination campaign paying online trolls to make Clinton look the victim of sexist abuse (and subsequent "Bernie Bros" narrative, itself a repackaging of Clinton's 2008 "Obama Boys") shows that negative marketing is already a thing.



* I am unsure if "hoping" is the correct term, as it infers there might have been a possibility the knuckle-draggers weren't going to crawl out from under their rocks for this one.