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ABC Warriors Time line

Started by james newell, 18 March, 2016, 01:37:58 PM

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The Adventurer

'Turn your brain off' is not a valid excuse for sloppy writing.

Especially when a guy like Pat Mills is spending so much time trying to seed political messages in his comics.

THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK

Frank

Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 19 March, 2016, 10:51:22 AM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 19 March, 2016, 09:55:09 AM
The Mills-verse continuity is a hodge podge of retcons and rewritting, i've learned just to take every book of every series at face value.

I have to admit it gets on my wick a bit sometimes.  Look at Sláine, for example ... Sometimes I just wish I knew what was supposed to have actually happened in past stories.

I think Hawkmangler has the hang of it, although I seem to enjoy Mills stories "at face value" more than he does.  As our Sun King, TordelBack, hints at above, the real story of Sláine or any other Millsverse strip is Pat's continuing involvement with the comic, and his struggle to find something original or interesting to say about (or do with) his characters.

Every time I see the Warriors struggling against overwhelming corporate forces, or Sláine brought to his knees by the weight of age and self doubt (occasioned by an unkind word from a critic), I see Mills's struggle to continue writing those strips.

I see Mills bravely doing battle with the laptop to prevent his characters falling into the negligent hands of young(er) hacks, as happened with Wagner, Grant, and Finley-Day creations [1] - hacking mercilessly away at paragraphs to avoid surrender to the bourgeois construct of artistic integrity [2] and the pressure to retire them, like Nemesis.

That's almost always a mistake. Everyone here will have talked nonsense about the way characters in 2000ad die and stay dead distinguishes it from those silly superhero comics, but that's obviously a load of bollocks [3]. The real thing that distinguishes 2000ad from the competition is its latter day policy that when the original creators are done with a strip so is the comic.


(continued, because I've written far too much ...)


[1] Wagner sometimes dramatises his own struggle and determination to keep enjoying the fruits of his younger self's creativity too - see Fifty Year Man.

[2] Scroobius Pip and Blindboy from Rubber Bandits had an excellent discussion about the false, middle class narrative imposed upon those who make their living from creative endeavour. 19th century Romantic notions, devised by men who had titles instead of forenames, are inadequate models for anyone trying to make a living through art without the fallback position of phoning Mummy and Daddy to alter the terms of their trust fund.

[3] Killing the Angel gang and Johnny Alpha, then bringing them back, being the obvious examples of failure or mixed success. The resurrection of Judge Giant is the best example of both a successful grab back into history AND the limitations of trying to make such a move obey real world physics - few writers have the luxury of playing a long game of a decade or more.

Frank


(continued ...)

The real thing that distinguishes 2000ad from the competition is its latter day policy that when the original creators are done with a strip so is the comic.

That only applies to John Wagner and Pat Mills characters as long as they're prepared to write them though, so both titans have to saddle up and find a way of making the same characters doing the same thing they did forty years ago in some way interesting to the same people who were reading them forty years ago. Imagine how difficult that must be.

John Wagner has regretted killing off great characters because of their potential for stories, then found ways (some more successful than others) to get them back as a story telling option. To be honest, a slightly confused timeline involving four dimensional travel and (khaos) magic seems preferable to characters being caught in nets for 16 years. 

The real thing that distinguishes 2000ad from its competitors is the fact the men who created its most lucrative properties have been writing them for forty years. You could make the argument that at various points it would have been better to give someone with fresh energy and a different perspective a try, but we all saw how that worked out with Dredd.

Both Wagner and Mills have turned in absolutely dreadful work over the years, and then a short while later turned in strips that are as good as anything they've ever written.

Letting the original creators continue benefitting from their work by writing new adventures has its own benefits and drawbacks, which differ from the benefits and drawbacks of the more corporatist approach of other publishers. It isn't inherently better, but it is different, and more interesting for that. Sorry for writing so much, but I was enjoying myself.



Eric Plumrose

Quote from: Skullmo on 19 March, 2016, 02:14:50 PM
I think it's pretty safe to say that Dredd's universe and the Millsverse are different

Stylistically, yes. But then so are the worlds of HARLEM HEROES/INFERNO, STRONTIUM DOG, and ROGUE TROOPER -- all of which have crossed over into JUDGE DREDD courtesy of John Wagner himself (by decree of Tharg?).

HARLEM HEROES (the original) and RO-BUSTERS (once it became part of 2000 AD's line-up) both reference Mega-City One. The first series of ABC WARRIORS acts as both a sequel to INVASION! and a prequel to RO-BUSTERS. The HAMMERSTEIN four-parter has him fighting as part of Booth's presidential guard. Bar typos and assumptions it all fits surprisingly well. To wit:

INVASION! takes place in 1999. SAVAGE is a continuation of it and takes place in the early Twenty-First Century.

'Hammer-Stein's War Memoirs' references aeroball, therefore ABC WARRIORS [first series] likely takes place post-2050 which is why I would presume a second Volgan War. With the fall of Volgow, the [second] Volgan War ends. Immediately thereafter, Hammerstein recruits a squad of ABC Warriors ('the Mek-Nificent Seven') and relocates to Mars for the first time.

'The Cursed Earth' features a war memorial dating the Battle of Armageddon to 2071. The HAMMERSTEIN four-parter depicts his involvement in that battle against the Judges so Hammerstein has at some point returned to Earth. Lying dormant due to falling into a pit, he's later reactivated and subsequently enters Mega-City One asking to be sold, thus dovetailing into RO-BUSTERS. A caption box erroneously dates HAMMERSTEIN to (I think) 2117 rather than c. 2078 when RO-BUSTERS was first set.

Contrary to popular belief, I'd argue HARLEM HEROES takes place in 2077. The original strip simply states that aeroball 'has swept the world' by 2050, not that it's the year the story's set. Despite the typo on Giant's tomb ('DIED 2178'), INFERNO would seem to confirm the later date.

It's a bit of fun, something I enjoyed poring over when I were a sprog. And while I don't expect writers to swot up on all this stuff it is disappointing when someone like Pat Mills (who used to be so good at it) no longer seems interested in his own continuity.
Not sure if pervert or cheesecake expert.

Lobo Baggins

Hammerstein used to have a hyphen.  I want to know what happened to it.
The wages of sin are death, but the hours are good and the perks are fantastic.

Skullmo

Quote from: Eric Plumrose on 19 March, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Skullmo on 19 March, 2016, 02:14:50 PM
I think it's pretty safe to say that Dredd's universe and the Millsverse are different

Stylistically, yes. But then so are the worlds of HARLEM HEROES/INFERNO, STRONTIUM DOG, and ROGUE TROOPER -- all of which have crossed over into JUDGE DREDD courtesy of John Wagner himself (by decree of Tharg?).

HARLEM HEROES (the original) and RO-BUSTERS (once it became part of 2000 AD's line-up) both reference Mega-City One. The first series of ABC WARRIORS acts as both a sequel to INVASION! and a prequel to RO-BUSTERS. The HAMMERSTEIN four-parter has him fighting as part of Booth's presidential guard. Bar typos and assumptions it all fits surprisingly well. To wit:

INVASION! takes place in 1999. SAVAGE is a continuation of it and takes place in the early Twenty-First Century.

'Hammer-Stein's War Memoirs' references aeroball, therefore ABC WARRIORS [first series] likely takes place post-2050 which is why I would presume a second Volgan War. With the fall of Volgow, the [second] Volgan War ends. Immediately thereafter, Hammerstein recruits a squad of ABC Warriors ('the Mek-Nificent Seven') and relocates to Mars for the first time.

'The Cursed Earth' features a war memorial dating the Battle of Armageddon to 2071. The HAMMERSTEIN four-parter depicts his involvement in that battle against the Judges so Hammerstein has at some point returned to Earth. Lying dormant due to falling into a pit, he's later reactivated and subsequently enters Mega-City One asking to be sold, thus dovetailing into RO-BUSTERS. A caption box erroneously dates HAMMERSTEIN to (I think) 2117 rather than c. 2078 when RO-BUSTERS was first set.

Contrary to popular belief, I'd argue HARLEM HEROES takes place in 2077. The original strip simply states that aeroball 'has swept the world' by 2050, not that it's the year the story's set. Despite the typo on Giant's tomb ('DIED 2178'), INFERNO would seem to confirm the later date.

It's a bit of fun, something I enjoyed poring over when I were a sprog. And while I don't expect writers to swot up on all this stuff it is disappointing when someone like Pat Mills (who used to be so good at it) no longer seems interested in his own continuity.


Does Inferno and the Fleisher Harlem Heroes fit in?

It's a joke. I was joking.

TordelBack

Quote from: Lobo Baggins on 19 March, 2016, 04:48:05 PM
Hammerstein used to have a hyphen.  I want to know what happened to it.

Gotta be at least a three-book saga in that, surely.

Quote from: Skullmo on 19 March, 2016, 04:56:12 PM
Does Inferno and the Fleisher Harlem Heroes fit in?

You're just a bad man at heart, ain't ya Skullmo?

Skullmo

Quote from: Tordelback on 19 March, 2016, 05:01:00 PM

Quote from: Skullmo on 19 March, 2016, 04:56:12 PM
Does Inferno and the Fleisher Harlem Heroes fit in?

You're just a bad man at heart, ain't ya Skullmo?

Pretty much!
It's a joke. I was joking.

vark

Quote from: Butch on 19 March, 2016, 04:25:19 PM

(continued ...)

The real thing that distinguishes 2000ad from the competition is its latter day policy that when the original creators are done with a strip so is the comic.

That only applies to John Wagner and Pat Mills characters as long as they're prepared to write them though, so both titans have to saddle up and find a way of making the same characters doing the same thing they did forty years ago in some way interesting to the same people who were reading them forty years ago. Imagine how difficult that must be.

John Wagner has regretted killing off great characters because of their potential for stories, then found ways (some more successful than others) to get them back as a story telling option. To be honest, a slightly confused timeline involving four dimensional travel and (khaos) magic seems preferable to characters being caught in nets for 16 years. 

The real thing that distinguishes 2000ad from its competitors is the fact the men who created its most lucrative properties have been writing them for forty years. You could make the argument that at various points it would have been better to give someone with fresh energy and a different perspective a try, but we all saw how that worked out with Dredd.

Both Wagner and Mills have turned in absolutely dreadful work over the years, and then a short while later turned in strips that are as good as anything they've ever written.

Letting the original creators continue benefitting from their work by writing new adventures has its own benefits and drawbacks, which differ from the benefits and drawbacks of the more corporatist approach of other publishers. It isn't inherently better, but it is different, and more interesting for that. Sorry for writing so much, but I was enjoying myself.
Very nice analysis Butch, thanks for that.

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: Lobo Baggins on 19 March, 2016, 04:48:05 PM
Hammerstein used to have a hyphen.  I want to know what happened to it.

It reproduced and established colonies along Carlos Ezquerra's outlines.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

The Adventurer

ABC Warriors, Slaine, and even Savage really should be handed off to younger writers.

THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK

JayzusB.Christ

Quote from: The Adventurer on 19 March, 2016, 06:09:42 PM
ABC Warriors, Slaine, and even Savage really should be handed off to younger writers.

I can't see Pat having any problem with that.
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

TordelBack

Quote from: The Adventurer on 19 March, 2016, 06:09:42 PM
ABC Warriors, Slaine, and even Savage really should be handed off to younger writers.

No. If people want to write stories about robots, barbarians or resistance fighters, they should write new ones: Aquila springs to mind as 'not Slaine', Kingdom as 'not Rogue Trooper' or, errr, Dandridge as 'not Bix Barton'. This isn't Marvel or DC.

There are very few examples of the iconic 2000AD strips being improved by new writers. Even where the work was well-written (very latest Rogue Trooper, The VCs, Strontium Dogs), very little was added, and more often (earlier non-GFD Rogue Trooper, RoboHunter) it was just awful.  The best compromise seems to be spin-off stuff, in the mould of The 86ers or Jaegir.

Oh, alright then - Alan Moore can go back to writing ABC Warriors, he seemed pretty good at it.

Hawkmumbler

John Smith on ABC Warriors. Just as confusing as anything Pat has done with them recently, several thousand time's more entertaining WITH ACTUAL PAY OFF!!!

Dark Jimbo

Quote from: credo on 19 March, 2016, 07:53:19 AM
There's a problem there, isn't there?

The Warriors in Nemesis and Deadlock are the same ones who've travelled back in time post black hole...

So, the Warriors have to have travelled back to their present to meet Nemesis, then back to the past to find Hecate (maybe Torquemada blew it up in their present).

Either that or it's a past Nemesis ...

Past Nemesis. He is basically a God, remember. During the Two Torquemadas, for instance, he goes flying through time to see what happens to Thoth and watches his murder long before it actually happens. He doesn't have to have actually met the Warriors before to know who they or that he will eventually get them back together and be their leader for a while.

It's a crap story though, and I suspect Mills was basically phoning it in at that point. But it's easily rationalised from an in-story point of view.
@jamesfeistdraws