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The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

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IAMTHESYSTEM

#9780
I'm an Anglo Scot born in Scotland raised in England so here's my tuppenny bit.

Surely history must play a part in this. England, a protestant Nation spent the past 400 years fighting centralizing European Powers the vast majority of whom were catholic. The fear of invasion became a lasting worry for of England the legacy of which can be attested to in the forts that ring these islands shores.This gave England a particular identity that tended to stress individual Liberty from the State, self reliance and thanks to the Normans, Bloody Queen Mary and Oliver Cromwell a deep mistrust of big Government. Pompous  ' Little Englanders' some Englishmen must be but these 'little Englanders' saw off the two deliberately genocidal societies that came to menace Europe-Nazi Germany and the USSR. These were achieved within living memory yet that merely reinforces the knowledge that England could be threatened by invasion from the near continent. The threat from 'over there' never quite recedes in the English mind set since events like the Armada, the French Revolution and WW2 have reinforced it, century upon century, year after year strengthening the sense of English difference to it's neighbours.

So an organization like the EU would never be met with joy amongst certain Englishmen. It would seem to be, in their minds, just another attempt to achieve a centralizing European power by stealth this time commanded by Bureaucrats from Brussels rather than Panzer divisions or Communists. Euro skeptics might not care for the finer points of the European debate that reform is possible if very difficult etc but they don't have to care or understand it. Englishmen know what they don't like -and they don't like Europe.
"You may live to see man-made horrors beyond your comprehension."

http://artriad.deviantart.com/
― Nikola Tesla

Old Tankie

Some of that is close to the mark with this Englishman.

TordelBack

#9782
Quote from: Scolaighe Ó'Bear on 05 February, 2016, 09:52:29 PM
TTIP is the EU's future, not open and accountable democratic processes.

Given the Tory's enthusiastic support for TTIP, presumably it's an 'independent' UK's future too.

As to IAMTHESYSTEM's cogent observation, I'm sure there's more thsn a grain of truth there, but as an outsider from a far less diverse culture I don't recognise the pluralist inclusive England that I see whenever I'm over there.  I suspect dislike is of a specific idea of Europe created by relentless media,  rather than Europe itself.

GordonR

Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 05 February, 2016, 10:03:26 PM
I'm an Anglo Scot born in Scotland raised in England so here's my tuppenny bit.

Surely history must play a part in this. England, a protestant Nation spent the past 400 years fighting centralizing European Powers the vast majority of whom were catholic. The fear of invasion became a lasting worry for of England the legacy of which can be attested to in the forts that ring these islands shores.This gave England a particular identity that tended to stress individual Liberty from the State, self reliance and thanks to the Normans, Bloody Queen Mary and Oliver Cromwell a deep mistrust of big Government. Pompous  ' Little Englanders' some Englishmen must be but these 'little Englanders' saw off the two deliberately genocidal societies that came to menace Europe-Nazi Germany and the USSR. These were achieved within living memory yet that merely reinforces the knowledge that England could be threatened by invasion from the near continent. The threat from 'over there' never quite recedes in the English mind set since events like the Armada, the French Revolution and WW2 have reinforced it, century upon century, year after year strengthening the sense of English difference to it's neighbours.

So an organization like the EU would never be met with joy amongst certain Englishmen. It would seem to be, in their minds, just another attempt to achieve a centralizing European power by stealth this time commanded by Bureaucrats from Brussels rather than Panzer divisions or Communists. Euro skeptics might not care for the finer points of the European debate that reform is possible if very difficult etc but they don't have to care or understand it. Englishmen know what they don't like -and they don't like Europe.

Did you cut and paste this twaddle from some Britain First thing?

The Legendary Shark

I think Europe's great, just like everywhere else. It's the tits in charge I don't care for.
[move]~~~^~~~~~~~[/move]




Mikey

Personally, my main concern about leaving the EU is mainly around the Habitat and Birds Directives. I can't see areas that have been protected through ratification of these Directives faring well without some obligation to protect them, as if they are downgraded to national status with the best will in the world they won't have the same status. This connects to the way agriculture currently operates in my fringe area of the UK- a lot of farms only exist with EU subsidies, so without them livelihoods will disappear and relatively small holdings will be consumed by bigger enterprises or developers that without robust regulation might not be too concerned with conservation. Not that many landowners or developers give a shite now, but I'm sure you get my point.

See also the effect of having a border with an EU country that had ratified the Waste Directive long before the UK.

So I'm voting in.
To tell the truth, you can all get screwed.

IAMTHESYSTEM

Quote from: GordonR on 05 February, 2016, 10:56:03 PM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 05 February, 2016, 10:03:26 PM
I'm an Anglo Scot born in Scotland raised in England so here's my tuppenny bit.

Surely history must play a part in this. England, a protestant Nation spent the past 400 years fighting centralizing European Powers the vast majority of whom were catholic. The fear of invasion became a lasting worry for of England the legacy of which can be attested to in the forts that ring these islands shores.This gave England a particular identity that tended to stress individual Liberty from the State, self reliance and thanks to the Normans, Bloody Queen Mary and Oliver Cromwell a deep mistrust of big Government. Pompous  ' Little Englanders' some Englishmen must be but these 'little Englanders' saw off the two deliberately genocidal societies that came to menace Europe-Nazi Germany and the USSR. These were achieved within living memory yet that merely reinforces the knowledge that England could be threatened by invasion from the near continent. The threat from 'over there' never quite recedes in the English mind set since events like the Armada, the French Revolution and WW2 have reinforced it, century upon century, year after year strengthening the sense of English difference to it's neighbours.

So an organization like the EU would never be met with joy amongst certain Englishmen. It would seem to be, in their minds, just another attempt to achieve a centralizing European power by stealth this time commanded by Bureaucrats from Brussels rather than Panzer divisions or Communists. Euro skeptics might not care for the finer points of the European debate that reform is possible if very difficult etc but they don't have to care or understand it. Englishmen know what they don't like -and they don't like Europe.

Did you cut and paste this twaddle from some Britain First thing?

Ah on the button. Calm yourself sir for this is merely my observations on my fellow countrymen. It is  difficult. My head says stay but my heart says it's probably time to leave. Brussels for all it's faults was going to try and restrain the worst excesses of the square mile which is only a good thing in my book but having EU Commissioners pushing for a joint foreign policy, apparently without any consultation with the European public does seem a bit far as I'm concerned. Power does ride hard for itself sometimes.
"You may live to see man-made horrors beyond your comprehension."

http://artriad.deviantart.com/
― Nikola Tesla

TordelBack

#9787
Mikey makes an excellent point about the Birds and Habitats Directives. I recently did a job where impact on sloblands was a major issue and it was seriously impressive the way the Council trod so carefully around SACs - in total contrast with the way they treated other zoning. Our old Wildlife Acts stressed balance with the concerns of landowners (read: developers) - the EU directives assert the primacy of the needs of wildlife within SACs.  It's somewhere the EU has had a hugely positive effect, but would probably have been politically impossible solely at a national level.

Professor Bear

Quote from: Tordelback on 05 February, 2016, 10:37:35 PM
Quote from: Scolaighe Ó'Bear on 05 February, 2016, 09:52:29 PM
TTIP is the EU's future, not open and accountable democratic processes.

Given the Tory's enthusiastic support for TTIP, presumably it's an 'independent' UK's future too.

It's a trade agreement specific to the USA and the EU.
At least, I presume it is, given the wording of what little details have emerged about this binding legal trade agreement we aren't getting a vote on and can never withdraw from.

IndigoPrime

Quote from: Mikey on 06 February, 2016, 08:29:18 AMPersonally, my main concern about leaving the EU is mainly around the Habitat and Birds Directives.
There's quite a lot of stuff along those lines where the UK is being 'forced' to do something against 'its' wishes, by which I mean the worst excesses of Tory government are knocked back slightly. I suspect if we left the EU under a Labour-led government, things wouldn't be quite so bad. But under a Tory one, God only knows what state we'd be left in, bar rich people who, naturally, would be fine. One thing's pretty certain: there won't be a UK for much more than a decade if we do vote out. And perhaps that'll suit people just fine. But an isolationist country of 50+ million people, few natural resources, and diminishing diversity in industry doesn't exactly strike me as a savvy way forward.

As for the EU itself, I agree with those who believe it needs huge reform. But then perhaps the UK should attempt to instigate that. Get into the driving seat, in the manner many EU nations have been asking for a good long time now, rather than behaving like a petulant child, flinging its toys away when demands aren't met or exceeded.

TordelBack

Quote from: Scolaighe Ó'Bear on 06 February, 2016, 01:58:35 PM
Quote from: Tordelback on 05 February, 2016, 10:37:35 PM
Quote from: Scolaighe Ó'Bear on 05 February, 2016, 09:52:29 PM
TTIP is the EU's future, not open and accountable democratic processes.

Given the Tory's enthusiastic support for TTIP, presumably it's an 'independent' UK's future too.

It's a trade agreement specific to the USA and the EU.
At least, I presume it is, given the wording of what little details have emerged about this binding legal trade agreement we aren't getting a vote on and can never withdraw from.

Indeed, but it's clearly something of which the current UK government approve, so you'd imagine it's an agreement you'd see replicated or at least aspired to on a UK/US basis.

TordelBack

Staggering to watch a neo-Nazi organisation opposed on the streets of my city today, and then watch social media and comment threads full of support for them, at a rate of about 10 to 1. Worse to see the same decades-old excuses trotted out, like something out of a history book.  Is this crap ever going to go away?

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 06 February, 2016, 02:09:53 PM
But under a Tory one, God only knows what state we'd be left in, bar rich people who, naturally, would be fine.

The EU has done more for workers' rights in the last twenty-odd years than every UK political party and trade union put together. Pay very careful attention to the 'out' proponents who talk about making the UK economy 'more competitive' because what they mean by that is 'more like America'.

Let that sink in for a minute.

No sick pay. No maternity leave. The ability of managers to fire you at will. No upper limit on your weekly working hours. Ten days' annual leave.

I haven't had a 'proper' job for six years, but my work/life balance significantly improved over the decade or so preceding that, largely due to EU-mandated improvements in the treatment of employees.

Cheers

Jim
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

ZenArcade

Just what Jim said there. If we left We'd be jumping on the local bus back to the Victorian era on to the high speed express. Z
Ed is dead, baby Ed is...Ed is dead

Old Tankie

"Back to the Victorian era" oh! please! And we'll all have scurvy!!!