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The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

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Modern Panther

Historically, people swore fealty to the king, and died of cholera no more than fifty furlongs from where they were born.  Travelling to distant lands was left to those with money and the privilege of a good education, or men in uniform tasked with killing foreigners. 

International trade and commerce requires international regulation, and whilst there may be many problems with the  set up of the EU, pretending it isn't there won't help. 

Old Tankie

Not sure anybody is pretending it isn't there.

IndigoPrime

Quote from: COMMANDO FORCES on 08 April, 2016, 02:43:26 PMWhat does Corbyn think of the EU, as he's very quiet, especially as from what I've read and heard, he's against it.
His statement on Labour's position was very clear:

"We will be campaigning to keep Britain in Europe in the coming referendum, regardless of David Cameron's tinkering, because it brings investment, jobs and protection for British workers and consumers."

His own personal sentiments have said to be varied, but his current outlook in all interviews echoes that of the Greens, in that it makes more sense to remain in the EU and attempt reform than exit and be hurled into years of uncertainty.

I still find the exit thing baffling. Almost everything from that camp is rhetoric, bluster and nebulous bullshit. People are yelling that things will be better just because, and all the deals will be amazing BECAUSE BRITAIN. It reminds me of Trump saying the Mexicans will pay for a wall, more than sensible planning for a future relationship with the EU and other world powers post-exit.

QuoteWho would've thought that people who believe in democracy and laugh at that Dredd story, for the Judges are very undemocratic, would actually prefer to want to be ruled by an undemocratic political power.
Right now, we're ruled outright by a party that secured 37% of the vote, and is trying to curtail the power of the upper house, along with changing the electoral boundaries to its advantage. And despite people claiming otherwise, parliament remains sovereign, even though we are obligated to implement chunks of EU law. The EU needs democratic reform for sure, but the UK's no better in and of itself, from council level through to the Commons and the Lords.

Quitting the EU's not going to get us better democracy in the UK. Hell, I've no idea what would, given that the Tories are steadfastly against electoral reform and Corbyn's mob aren't yet united on the idea of some kind of proportional representation in the Commons (although Labour has at least budged on replacing the Lords).

COMMANDO FORCES

How on earth will we trade if we're not in the EU, I suppose we will shrivel and die!

Trade will happen if we are in or out, it's absolutely ridiculous to state otherwise. There are benefits to being in and out but if you like being told what to do by a corrupt and undemocratic body, then the EU is for you. (Best add before the usual say it, You can vote this government out and that is the difference)

People say that it will change but I would quite happily bet my house that the EU will never change and those books will NEVER be accounted for!

Professor Bear

I don't see how we can reform anything by staying in the EU if part of future trade deals like TTIP is that they can't be withdrawn from.

Frank

Quote from: COMMANDO FORCES on 08 April, 2016, 04:55:21 PM
if you like being told what to do by a corrupt and undemocratic body, then the EU is for you. (Best add before the usual say it, You can vote this government out and that is the difference)

You've never voted a government in or out of office, John; that's not how our political system works. You vote for a candidate to act as your representative in Parliament, with the forlorn hope that he'll vote in the same way you would.

If enough of your neighbours vote for the same candidate, he's returned to Parliament, and if enough of his mates get in they get to decide who'll be Prime Minister (then vote the way he decides). That's exactly what happens in the EU parliament too.

Brussels is undemocratic, but so is Westminster [1]. Where we agree is that voting in or out will make little difference to trade; in fact, I'd say it probably won't make any difference at all. It's the biggest nothing issue of my lifetime.


[1] See also, corruption.

Dandontdare

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 08 April, 2016, 03:53:06 PM
It could be said that the most anti-European body in Europe is the EU...

"It could be said" is the most weaselly political cop out ever. Are you saying it or not? It could be said I'm dating Scarlett Johansen and that would be as true as that.

And yes, trade will still happen but we'll just be in a weaker position to dictate terms so we'll get screwed over

Modern Panther

QuoteHow on earth will we trade if we're not in the EU, I suppose we will shrivel and die!

No, i imagine we'll just have to come to trade deals with each of the other individual member states, which could be subject to taxes and restrictions. 




The Legendary Shark

Quote from: Modern Panther on 08 April, 2016, 04:26:01 PM
Historically, people swore fealty to the king, and died of cholera no more than fifty furlongs from where they were born.  Travelling to distant lands was left to those with money and the privilege of a good education, or men in uniform tasked with killing foreigners. 

International trade and commerce requires international regulation, and whilst there may be many problems with the  set up of the EU, pretending it isn't there won't help. 


I don't understand your point here.

Historically, Europe was an anarchy of competing states. Was everything in Europe's past good? Of course not. Was everything in Europe's past bad? Of course not. Yes, people died of things they don't die of today. Yes, the rich generally had an easier time of it, just like they do today. The states competed and traded and communicated; they helped one another and hindered one another and did all the things human beings do; they achieved magnificent things and plumbed Hellish depths together. They didn't need European Union regulations to achieve the great things or flout European Union regulations to commit the terrible crimes. Greatness and baseness will always exist, with or without regulations.

From the mixture of states, peoples and perspectives, Europe was a varied and vibrant community of communities capable of everything we are capable of today. By trying to force all these different states into some bland, centrally regulated mess of conformity and uniformity, the EU is destroying what Europe once was. That was my point. Whether this destruction is a good or bad thing is a matter for personal thought. I think it is on the whole a bad thing. I would prefer to see a European Alliance rather than a European Union, where states and people who want to work together can choose to work together, or not, as the case may be. This "Union" is coercive and, by forcing sovereign states and peoples to work together whether they like it or not, corrosive.

Europe wasn't perfect in the past, it's certainly not perfect today and is unlikely to be perfect in the future. The EU may do some good things in microcosm but, as a whole, it does more harm than good and, by forcing the French to be like the Germans, the Belgians to be like the Greeks, the British to be like the Spanish, everyone to be like everyone else, it stifles the very thing that Europe was  - a glorious anarchy. From this perspective, the EU is the most anti-European entity on Earth. I don't see how this observation is in any way "pretending it isn't there."
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Hawkmumbler

More fantasy in that one post Sharky than the whole Disc World Series

Modern Panther

"European Alliance"?

"Soverign States"?

Who are you and what have you done with Sharky?

James Dilworth

Quote from: Dandontdare on 08 April, 2016, 06:04:00 PMIt could be said I'm dating Scarlett Johansen and that would be as true as that.

Give it a few more years and we can all be dating Scarlett Johansson.


The Legendary Shark

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COMMANDO FORCES

Don't forget to vote today and choose wisely!

Tories = Haters of the poor
Labour = Haters of the rich and Jews
Liberals = Lovers of everybody
UKIP = Haters of the EU
Greens = Users of fossil fuels

Modern Panther