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The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

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Modern Panther

Do they not vet these people?  Did someone at Ukip manage to get through a five minute conversation with Gisela and think "yeah, this is the person we want representing our party.  This is the best person for the job."?  Maybe they just pick member names out of a hat.

Then we've got Thomas Williamson, Conservative By Accident Party.

http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2017/04/21/dont-back-says-tory-sic-paper-candidate-lerwick-north

The Legendary Shark

If you want to live in a democracy, you must accept being led, or at least potentially led, by people whose views and ideals you despise.
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Hawkmumbler

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 23 April, 2017, 11:09:20 AM
If you want to live in a democracy, you must accept being led, or at least potentially led, by people whose views and ideals you despise.
The only problem with that line of thought is when campaigns are led wholey on lies and misinformation (Brexit, Trump, Le Pen etc) where the democratic process is corrupted and blurred.

The Legendary Shark

Given that the very basis of all government power is rooted in a lie ("I have the right to steal your money and push you around"), I reckon you're pretty spot-on there, Hawkie.
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NapalmKev

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 23 April, 2017, 11:30:54 AM
"I have the right to steal your money...

Income tax was first brought in the help combat the Napoleonic War, (Pitt the Younger?).

Before that, most taxes were created by Royalty (Wool tax, Wine tax, etc).

Once upon a time there was a justifiable case of not paying taxes. For modern times though I prefer things to be kept running as smoothly as possible - if that means I have to pay Tax, so be it.*

Cheers

*Admittedly I would like my money spent on more constructive ventures (NHS, Education) and less on Capitalist Warmongering!
"Where once you fought to stop the trap from closing...Now you lay the bait!"

The Legendary Shark

I don't think that theft can be justified simply by pointing at hospitals and roads. If I were to steal money because I need it (for whatever reason), that defence would not stand up in court and, I bet, you wouldn't support me either.

The argument is that taking someone's money without their consent is theft, no matter what you call it. If theft can be excused simply by arguing expedience, then we're all allowed to steal when it's the easier option - which is patently ridiculous.

Only once the reality of taxation being theft is accepted can the arguments of justifiable criminality and/or alternative systems be explored.
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Hawkmumbler

Yes. Taxation is not the problem, it's how an unacceptable percentage is being spent right now that is the problem.

Taxation pays for education, health care, emergency services. THIS is good.

The Legendary Shark

Okay, so if I steal money to buy myself a set of encyclopedias with which to educate myself, a first aid kit and box of medicines for my health and to pay for premium BUPA health insurance in case I have an accident, is that acceptable?
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NapalmKev

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 23 April, 2017, 12:19:01 PM
Okay, so if I steal money to buy myself a set of encyclopedias with which to educate myself, a first aid kit and box of medicines for my health and to pay for premium BUPA health insurance in case I have an accident, is that acceptable?

If you stole those things for yourself I'd say it was selfish behaviour. If you garnered money/resources to help those that have less (a bit like Government) and provided Healthcare and Education for all, I wouldn't think you selfish.

I understand your stance but until we get to a stage of limitless energy for all, no food shortages, etc, we're pretty much Fucked!

Cheers

"Where once you fought to stop the trap from closing...Now you lay the bait!"

Hawkmumbler

Well considering the cost of all that on an individual scale is doubtlessly more expensive (fuck Bupa) than taxation on a national scale than they are none comparable

The Legendary Shark

So, stealing money to spend on others is acceptable? Okay, I might be able to get behind this Robin Hood approach. From whom is it acceptable to steal, upon whom is it acceptable to bestow the stolen money and who or what decides?

The sun produces practically limitless energy, add wind and hydro and there's more than enough for everyone. There is enough food on this planet to feed everyone. In both cases, government backed corporations manage these resources for profit and not humanity, resulting in an organisational and monopolistic matrix of systems dependent on engineering and promoting shortages.

There is abundance in abundance, the only barrier to us accessing it is government.
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TordelBack

#12897
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 23 April, 2017, 12:47:53 PM
There is abundance in abundance, the only barrier to us accessing it is government individual greed and short-sightedness

FTFY

The problem is people. Governments are people, elected by people. The solution is for people to grow the hell up, so that the large scale collaborative and redistributive abilities of government can be properly directed.

The Legendary Shark

Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 23 April, 2017, 12:39:10 PMWell considering the cost of all that on an individual scale is doubtlessly more expensive (fuck Bupa) than taxation on a national scale than they are none comparable
I'm not talking about cost but lawfulness. All you seem to be suggesting is that if it's cheaper to steal then stealing is acceptable - but I'm pretty sure I've got that wrong. If a thing (stealing) is wrong for an individual then it must also be wrong for two people, or six, or sixty, or six hundred, or six million. Theft is either generally acceptable or it isn't, numbers make no difference except in respect to power; might is right.
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Hawkmumbler

Do you not use the NHS? Did you not go to school, or have family that do? Do you not require the mergency services at sometime or another? Inreally don't get this notion that we are all dependent on ourselves, instead of being a complex net of codependency. If I have a cut of my wages removed so my mates grandmother can have her chemo, I fine. If I have a slice of my income taken to get my brothers and sister stheough school, i'm chuffed. I will at sometime in my life have need of the police, the fire service, and ambulance staff, so I will gladly pay their wages so they can do their job.