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The Political Thread

Started by The Legendary Shark, 09 April, 2010, 03:59:03 PM

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Robin Low

Quote from: vzzbux on 07 May, 2010, 10:46:50 PM
I can't believe after all Gordon Brown and Labour has put us through over the last 14 Centuries years so many still voted. Sheesh..

I think it boils down to the fact that a fair few people are actually reasonably happy with the way things are.


Regards

Robin

M.I.K.

Quote from: Dandontdare on 07 May, 2010, 11:17:51 PM
Just had a look at their website and even tried a search under "left" - couldn't find anything. Could you provide a link?

The Wolf is correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Party

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: Robin Low on 07 May, 2010, 11:20:40 PM
I think it boils down to the fact that a fair few people are actually reasonably happy with the way things are.

Also, when you get down to it, the big* beef most people have with New Labour is Iraq. Illegal war, yes. Lies, yes. Yes, to all of it. Blair is a snivelling, supine cunt whose cowering acquiescence to Dubya's wishes should guarantee him a very special place in Hell. Yes, I agree.

Now, someone look me in the eye and tell me that --for one second-- you believe that the Tories would have done anything different, that the Tories would have stood up to or defied the wishes of any American government.

Cheers

Jim

*Not to say there aren't lots and lots of little beefs. And not so little beefs.
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Christov

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 07 May, 2010, 11:37:48 PM
Quote from: Robin Low on 07 May, 2010, 11:20:40 PM
I think it boils down to the fact that a fair few people are actually reasonably happy with the way things are.

Also, when you get down to it, the big* beef most people have with New Labour is Iraq. Illegal war, yes. Lies, yes. Yes, to all of it. Blair is a snivelling, supine cunt whose cowering acquiescence to Dubya's wishes should guarantee him a very special place in Hell. Yes, I agree.

Now, someone look me in the eye and tell me that --for one second-- you believe that the Tories would have done anything different, that the Tories would have stood up to or defied the wishes of any American government.

Cheers

Jim

*Not to say there aren't lots and lots of little beefs. And not so little beefs.

Exactly right. The Tories may have taken an even more heavy handed approach to Iraq, and they're using the same excuse that Labour does about Saddam Hussein needing to be taken out of the picture eventually.

Dandontdare

Quote from: M.I.K. on 07 May, 2010, 11:31:26 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 07 May, 2010, 11:17:51 PM
Just had a look at their website and even tried a search under "left" - couldn't find anything. Could you provide a link?

The Wolf is correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Party

Fair dos. Centre left.

My experience was from Dundee in the late 80s -  as a Labour student, I spent time canvassing for labour, and areas that would be considered Tory in England (big houses and money in general) tended to be SNP, whilst the working class areas were pure Labour.

And Jim - YES, well said.

Peter Wolf

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 07 May, 2010, 11:37:48 PM
Quote from: Robin Low on 07 May, 2010, 11:20:40 PM
I think it boils down to the fact that a fair few people are actually reasonably happy with the way things are.

Also, when you get down to it, the big* beef most people have with New Labour is Iraq. Illegal war, yes. Lies, yes. Yes, to all of it. Blair is a snivelling, supine cunt whose cowering acquiescence to Dubya's wishes should guarantee him a very special place in Hell. Yes, I agree.

Now, someone look me in the eye and tell me that --for one second-- you believe that the Tories would have done anything different, that the Tories would have stood up to or defied the wishes of any American government.

Cheers

Jim

*Not to say there aren't lots and lots of little beefs. And not so little beefs.

Its not just Iraq but Conservatives would have done EXACTLY the same thing when it came to Iraq/Afghanistan and bailing out banks and all the other major issues including the EU.

Which is why i always say they are all the same beyond superficial differences which is the main point i am trying to make most of the time.
Worthing Bazaar - A fete worse than death

Robin Low

#561
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 07 May, 2010, 11:37:48 PM
Quote from: Robin Low on 07 May, 2010, 11:20:40 PM
I think it boils down to the fact that a fair few people are actually reasonably happy with the way things are.

Also, when you get down to it, the big* beef most people have with New Labour is Iraq. Illegal war, yes. Lies, yes. Yes, to all of it. Blair is a snivelling, supine cunt whose cowering acquiescence to Dubya's wishes should guarantee him a very special place in Hell. Yes, I agree.

I think this is the root of it all. May have already posted this, but I still think that without Iraq Blair would still be PM and/or fairly well respected.

The other big issue, the one to beat Brown himself with, is the national debt, but as far as I can tell if Brown hadn't borrowed and spent that money the country would have been completely fucked and the situation far, far worse than it is. I seem to recall we were in debt in 1997, too, but it was Brown who paid that off. Little is made of this in the media, but I think people are conscious of it to some degree.

The Conservatives haven't quite made it because, I think, much of the general public is concerned that they'll resolve the debt issue through pretty severe cuts in public services. I think we all realise that cuts are coming anyway, but it's a matter of degree and focus, and the Conservatives are probably less trusted to get that right.


Regards

Robin

Peter Wolf

#562
I think that the traditional Labour party stopped existing when John Smith died and then became something quite different which of course it did.

Personally i think what Brown and Blair have done to this country is totally unforgivable and for a country to be virtually bankrupt after 12 years of economic growth regardless of how that came about is quite astonishing and yet he stood there and said "no more return to boom and bust" while apparently not knowing that was exactly going to happen.His only defence for that is that the UK was part of a bigger problem and because now everything is interconnected globally once one economy starts to fail they all do.

Just where did all the money go to ??

Either it was all by design or Brown was totally clueless but either way this country is locked into a situation where it has to borrow more money and spend just to stay afloat but personally i think certain political parties just have a total misunderstanding of economics.

I think we are starting to see the breakdown of the EU economically which is starting with Greece but if the growth of the national debt is not curtailed very soon then in 12 to 24 months we will be in the same economic position as Greece as in being bailed out by the IMF and European central banks and reduced to the status of a third world country.The only advantage is that the UK is not part of the Eurozone.

Will a Conservative coalition take the UK out of Afghanistan where it costs 5 billion + a year that is spent defending poppyfields instead of cutting that much from the NHS and other public services ?

I dont think so.


"Peoples' willingness to believe that their leaders know what they are doing and support them while they create havoc around the world, both financially, by misinformation and by military force indicates a serious lack of their own individual ability to think for themselves."
Worthing Bazaar - A fete worse than death

Robin Low

Quote from: Peter Wolf on 08 May, 2010, 03:37:32 PM
Personally i think what Brown and Blair have done to this country is totally unforgivable and for a country to be virtually bankrupt after 12 years of economic growth regardless of how that came about

So what should Brown have done? What have other countries like ours with economies that are heavily reliant on the financial services industry done that have proved more effective? What should have been done about banks that were collapsing?

Quotebut personally i think certain political parties just have a total misunderstanding of economics.

You mean ones you don't agree with? Seems to me that even experienced economists can't agree, so how you can expect politicians to understand or to presume that you understand is beyond me.

Whether it's politicans or the public, I see a lot of criticism of Brown, but little in the way of practical alternatives that are supported by convincing evidence in their favour.

I really don't like politicians in general, so I've no particular liking for Brown. However, as far as I can tell he gets the blame because of his position, not because he's actually directly responsible for anything particularly outrageous. The current problems can be laid at the doors of many people and organisations, in many countries, and over many years - it's far too easy and far too lazy to blame one prominent individual.


Regards

Robin

Hoagy

RE; The Conservatives war strategy. Don't they still believe in the jolly officer rules war strategy?
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Peter Wolf

Quote from: Peter Wolf on 08 May, 2010, 03:37:32 PM
.His only defence for that is that the UK was part of a bigger problem and because now everything is interconnected globally once one economy starts to fail they all do.





You didnt read that part of my comment Robin so here it is again.

Brown was Chancellor and then an unelected PM so he has to be expected to take at the very least part of the blame for the mess but as i said above the problem is much much bigger than Brown.

However there are plenty of economists who do agree and understand the causes of the economic crisis but they dont work for the govt and they are not listened to.

For example the cause of the collapse of the problems in Greece are because of criminality that is all connected to Goldman Sachs and the other too big to fails and its hardly very likely that Gordon Brown would call for an investigation into that before any cash is handed over to Greece.


Quote from: Robin Low on 08 May, 2010, 05:56:26 PM
Quote from: Peter Wolf on 08 May, 2010, 03:37:32 PM


You mean ones you don't agree with? Seems to me that even experienced economists can't agree, so how you can expect politicians to understand or to presume that you understand is beyond me.



Its quite simple really.Brown has an army of advisors at hand or alternatively he could have sought the right kind of independent financial advice and listened to it as there are plenty of economists who do understand the causes of the problems and you dont even need to be an economist to understand it.As it is Brown is just fronting a criminal system.

Quote from: Robin Low on 08 May, 2010, 05:56:26 PM
Quote from: Peter Wolf on 08 May, 2010, 03:37:32 PM

So what should Brown have done? What have other countries like ours with economies that are heavily reliant on the financial services industry done that have proved more effective? What should have been done about banks that were collapsing?



Regards

Robin

Brown should not have given the banks that were too big to fail our cash without stipulating strict conditions on which the cash was lent so that the cash actually went back into the economy instead of just being simply removed.

Thats simple enough and thats the first thing he should have done if he had no choice to bail them out.
Worthing Bazaar - A fete worse than death

COMMANDO FORCES

Quote from: Robin Low on 08 May, 2010, 05:56:26 PM
I really don't like politicians in general, so I've no particular liking for Brown. However, as far as I can tell he gets the blame because of his position, not because he's actually directly responsible for anything particularly outrageous. The current problems can be laid at the doors of many people and organisations, in many countries, and over many years - it's far too easy and far too lazy to blame one prominent individual.

Sorry Robin but he wanted those jobs. I get sick of people passing the buck to other people, why can't he be a man and admit that he FUCKED UP. All of his mistakes will never touch the people in power, with money! It's going to be you and me who have a hard future.
When he was the Chancellor he could have changed things and stopped many things from getting way out of hand but he did NOTHING! The mark of a prudent man....


I'll only mention the KILLER TWO.

Selling 60% of the country's gold and letting every Fucker know in advance, which meant the price dropped to a 20 year low. Some place the loss to the treasury between 2 & 5 Billion pounds.

Remember the pension fiasco, when his own people told him not to do it and he just went ahead and changed the tax system (this hit the poor more than the rich - treasury officials reported). This will hit everyone with a pension, especially the POOR.

These two reasons alone are enough for me to detest the person

Here's a little bit about me so you know where I'm coming from.
I come from a mining background and since leaving school :-
I have never missed a days work, EVER!
I have paid into my different pensions constantly, because it's the right thing to do, even though I feel like stopping now.
I have never been in debt.
I don't own a credit card.
I live in the real world and live within my means.
I put money away each month into Sam's account (he now has more savings than us).
I am not the highest paid person in the country, by a long way!
I have just got on with what ever life throws at me, as I have a very strong work ethic. I always said that when I left the forces I would do the shitiest job going if needed, to pay for me and my family to get on and enjoy life. I was made redundant last summer but walked straight into a better job after 2 months gardening leave and that was paid for just being a HGV driver. Life is bloody strange but I knew I'd find work, no matter what.

Also, I knew that because of all the bad lending by irresponsible greedy people to greedy irresponsible people would bite us on the arse one day and I'm not an economist!
By the way, the government pay out more in benefits than they take in at the moment, that was from a BBC programme, we can't go on like this!

Here are a few ways I would improve this Great Country of ours!

All sports centres, youth clubs, swimming pools, etc to be paid for out of taxes. You can use your local ones free (may have to pay to use out of your area ones).
All the unemployed to be paid a certain wage and have to do charitable work, help the aged, clean the beaches, community stuff, etc.... (I suppose some people will moan that they have to work for the dole, well I'd change the bloody name then).
All buses and trains in the country are free, paid for by taxes again. More people would bloody use them then, if they knew that their taxes paid for them and you could just jump on and off with no tickets.

There we go, Tory me (who is the only person on here who can prove the way he voted, I did put my reason down for voting Liberal this time) believes in paying for that lot to benefit everyone in this country. Sometimes you have to break the mould and start again. The only problem with my idea is that the rich bods who own all the above would not be able to fleece everyone anymore and all parties wouldn't allow that.

Here endeth my report to save the country  ;)

Robin Low

Quote from: Peter Wolf on 08 May, 2010, 07:17:13 PM

However there are plenty of economists who do agree and understand the causes of the economic crisis but they dont work for the govt and they are not listened to.

You mean the ones you happen to agree with. That doesn't make them right.

This is all opinion, Peter, not fact.

Regards

Robin

House of Usher

#568
I like your ideas, CF.

They sound expensive to me, but also quite progressive. All of them would need an increase in income tax to pay for them. I've never been against income tax rises myself, but some people are funny about that.

As far as the proposal to make unemployed people work without giving them real jobs goes, as somebody who has spent far too long a time unemployed myself, I can't say I'd be against it as all the things you've mentioned are socially useful. I volunteered anyway, but the job centre places time limits on it. If the deal were to work 20-30 hours a week for enhanced benefits, with a reduced expectation on numbers of job applications, I'd happily have done that.

I hated having to contend with the expectation to apply for jobs that paid so little I'd be worse off after factoring in food and travel costs. I also hated the additional penalties associated with working in the black economy when you're receiving benefits, and as a consequence I turned down neighbours' requests for help that came with a much desired offer of financial recompense, which I would have gladly done for nothing when I've had wages coming in.

Like "will you take Mrs so-and-so shopping every Wednesday? there's £20 in it for you." - "What like every Wednesday? Regularly?" - "Yes, regularly." - "Sounds a bit like a job. No, sorry - can't do that. Could land me in a whole heap of trouble with the benefits agency." - So Mrs so-and-so will have to just stay indoors and rely on relatives to bring her shopping round on a Saturday (for example).
STRIKE !!!

Peter Wolf

Quote from: Robin Low on 08 May, 2010, 09:57:58 PM
Quote from: Peter Wolf on 08 May, 2010, 07:17:13 PM

However there are plenty of economists who do agree and understand the causes of the economic crisis but they dont work for the govt and they are not listened to.

You mean the ones you happen to agree with. That doesn't make them right.

This is all opinion, Peter, not fact.

Regards

Robin

Wrong.

Facts are facts and truth is beyond subjectivity.

Worthing Bazaar - A fete worse than death