The Political Thread

[Old Tankie]

Funny that, I have had remainers say to me that if we voted to leave there would be a immediate recession, house prices would collapse, and unemployment would shoot up.

[IndigoPrime]

The point being that Remainers are being blamed by Leavers for things that the government is doing NOW primarily to appease that side, which is different from "thing X didn't happen (yet)".

EDIT: Or to be very specific, the notion that it's somehow the fault of Remain voters that we're quitting the single market and customs union, and not considering joining EFTA is absolutely batshit. But that's what 'liberal' Leave voters are now yelling.

[Jim_Campbell]

Funny that, I have had remainers say to me that if we voted to leave there would be a immediate recession, house prices would collapse, and unemployment would shoot up.

I didn't. I outlined a specific, well-sourced scenario that you engaged with to the extent of saying "I don't think that will happen" and then refused to expand on. So: sterling crashes to less than parity with the dollar, we lose City of London passporting, Scotland leaves the Union and the Good Friday agreement collapses. Explain to me why either: a) this doesn't happen, or b) how we mitigate the effects of this disaster if it does.

Bonus points on offer for not mentioning sovereignty and/or explaining how the NHS and the housing market copes with a couple of million mostly-retired ex-pats coming home plays out if we continue to deport EU residents with perfectly reasonable cases for remaining in the U.K.

[Goaty]

Funny that, I have had remainers say to me that if we voted to leave there would be a immediate recession, house prices would collapse, and unemployment would shoot up.

And you think it not?

[Professor Bear]

That even the Liberal Democrats said they'd back that multiple times since seems to have been ignored.

To be fair, most people think the LibDems will say anything but then do fuck all about it.
I'm not saying the guy was right, but the media were selective about what they reported and when during the referendum.  The entire debate was framed around immigration, and not the "what happens to resident foreign nationals who are our neighbors and colleagues?" type of immigration debate.  If you were talking about the economy and workers' rights, then good luck getting on the teatime news.

[Goaty]

Well done to Dutch people!

[Steve Green]

I'm not getting my hopes up yet, despite exit polls.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

The Libdems still exist?

[Professor Bear]

From where they were after the 2015 GE, the only way was up.

[sheridan]

The Telegraph piece was actually worse for a while.

Absolutely horrific, particularly in the wake of the murder of Jo Cox. I'm not a fan of heavy regulation of the press but there needs to be some comeback for publishing material like this.

Remember, days after the murder of Jo Cox, the referendum had passed "without a single bullet being fired".  Even for Farage, that line took the biscuit.

[Jim_Campbell]

David Davis, the man in charge of Brexit had the following to say in committee:



These people have no clue what they're doing.

Step up, Leave voters. Tell me how this is all going to work out OK. Specifically note the final point about financial services. Again, financial services constitute 12% of GDP and are the main mitigator of our appalling balance of trade deficit.*

For comparison, the 2008 financial crisis shrank the UK economy by 8%.

*I'm not entirely sure Leave-ers are entirely grasping the significance of this with respect to sterling's downward slide.

[Old Tankie]

If he has no clue what he is doing, why do you give what he says any credence?

[Jim_Campbell]

If he has no clue what he is doing, why do you give what he says any credence?

BECAUSE IT'S HIS JOB. He is the man tasked with making leaving the EU work, and he's just outlined what everyone, pre-referendum, agreed was basically the worst case scenario and that everyone, even Leave campaigners, assured us wouldn't happen.

[IndigoPrime]

To be fair, most people think the LibDems will say anything but then do fuck all about it.

Probably, although I find it odd so many have a bee in their bonnet about that party when others are hardly covering themselves in glory. On Brexit alone, Labour's basically doing the opposite of what it's saying at every turn. At least the Lib Dems are staying true to their aim of some sort of functional relationship with the EU, using the mechanisms available. (Labour now argue that they will use "imaginative means" of fighting the Tories, which presumably means magical fucking unicorns, rather than their Lords. They also keep saying they'll fight every step of the way shortly after capitulating and enabling this Tory government. Still, student fees, eh?)

I'm not saying the guy was right, but the media were selective about what they reported and when during the referendum.

There's world of difference between selective reporting and "hard Brexit is the fault of Remain voters for not accepting a moderate version of Leave", not least given their aims are eventual hard Brexit anyway – they just want it to happen slowly. (This is why there was never a consensus to be had – quite a few Remain voters I know wouldn't accept anything other than EU membership, and those that would accept EEA would want it as a destination, not a stop-gap.)

If he has no clue what he is doing, why do you give what he says any credence?

BECAUSE IT'S HIS JOB. He is the man tasked with making leaving the EU work, and he's just outlined what everyone, pre-referendum, agreed was basically the worst case scenario and that everyone, even Leave campaigners, assured us wouldn't happen.

Quite. All his answers either directly contradict the Leave campaign, are "we haven't looked into that", or go for that faith/religion-based approach. In other words, they "feel" that no deal would be better than a "bad" deal, even though they haven't done any research to back that up (Davis noting that perhaps wasn't possible at present, but commentators noting that because if they did and someone got at it through FOI, the shit would really hit the fan. Massive income tax rises or cuts would likely get a star role.)

[The Legendary Shark]

Have political parties outlived their usefulness?

Possibly, but I'd rather others run the Nation than have to do it myself. My major concern with Politics/Politicians is that nobody's ever accountable for anything!

Illegal Wars are started with false evidence as the cause - nobody cares!

Paedophiles apparently infiltrated Government and TV stations years ago - nobody cares!

I could go on but I'll end up winding myself up!

Anyway, accountability, or lack of, is what concerns me. People can be in charge but they need to take proper responsibility.

Cheers

This is, fundamentally, my position as well.

We need people to run things, just like any organisation does, but the Minister for Whatever should have no more rights or powers than the CEO of my local newsagent - both have the power to run their businesses within the same lawful parameters. That's all. Make sure the same laws apply to everyone and the problem of non-accountability is solved.

If "government" automatically bestows superhuman rights and responsibilities upon its employees, and if we think that's fine and dandy, then we must accept non-accountability as a side-effect. One can either be a ruler and non-accountable or a manager and accountable.

It's way past time we started asking (1 what "government" is for, 2) how it should operate and 3) what the extent of its rights and powers should be.

My answers are; 1) to organise infrastructure and services, 2) within the common law, 3) no more or less than yours or mine.