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ABC Warriors Time line

Started by james newell, 18 March, 2016, 01:37:58 PM

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EDazzling

Ah! They don't have paperbacks! That's taken a decision out of my hands then.

positronic

Quote from: EDazzling on 09 April, 2017, 11:51:32 AM
Ah! They don't have paperbacks! That's taken a decision out of my hands then.

They don't? I have The Solo Missions and The Volgan Wars 1-4 in paperback. I'm pretty sure there were earlier ones as well, but maybe they're out of print now. Not sure about the "Return" trilogy, they may only have been in hardcover.

Rogue Judge

Looking at the webshop, only The Volgan War 1-4 (and solo missions) comes in softcover. I am really hoping the Return To series comes out in softcover as I have the Volgan war in softcover already. I do have Mek Files 1 and really like the size/quality to collect the classics, but would still prefer softcover for the new stuff (a little OCD in my collection...gotta maintain consistency!)

positronic

Quote from: Rogue Judge on 09 April, 2017, 08:52:16 PM
Looking at the webshop, only The Volgan War 1-4 (and solo missions) comes in softcover. I am really hoping the Return To series comes out in softcover as I have the Volgan war in softcover already. I do have Mek Files 1 and really like the size/quality to collect the classics, but would still prefer softcover for the new stuff (a little OCD in my collection...gotta maintain consistency!)

I know what you mean. Weirdly enough the paperbacks were the first things I bought, but then The Mek Files (and Ro-Busters) and the Return trilogy are all in hardcover in the same size. Only later did I discover that there had been same-size hardcover editions of The Volgan Wars, but now they're out of print, and pricey from resellers. Drokk it!

positronic

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 06 April, 2017, 06:07:47 PM
Quote from: positronic on 06 April, 2017, 04:13:15 PM
I just wanted to note here that while reading through some of the comments earlier in this thread (before I bumped it recently) I was seeing a bunch of sour comments the general tone of which I'd paraphrase as sort of a grumbling "Pat Mills has lost it" (regarding the newer cycle of stories...)

...I have to say that based on the two newer books I've read, Return to Earth and Return to Ro-Busters, I disagree with that assessment entirely. I found them to be both thoroughly entertaining, sharply written, and informed by an interesting perspective -- plus I find Clint Langley's artwork to be quite satisfying, both modern, and still retaining a kind of "classic 2000 AD" sensibility of style.

Well, quite. The tone and style are certainly different these days, but I enjoy ABC Warriors as much as I ever have (well... Apart from wishing we could knock all these bloody flashbacks on the head). Newish readers usually tend to agree with you, too - and I think to some extent 'ABC warriors are rubbish now' translates as 'I want the ABC warriors to be like it was when I was seven', backed up by how often Mekniicent Seven is cited as best/favourite story.

That's working quite well for me personally, in the order I've been reading them -- which is more-or-less chronologically from the Warriors' POV, allowing for the mix of prologue/epilogue framing stories bookending the longer flashback sequences. I feel like Mills is quite aware of what he's doing here, looking over the ouvre of his past A.B.C. stories, and trying to fill in some gaps and address some vaguer points. That's why some of them are both prequels and reiterations of parts of a longer earlier story.

They definitely add some depth and motivation that is missing from some earlier sequences. A good example here that really impressed me is the appearance of Howard Quartz on Mars in RETURN TO MARS, and his conversation with Tubal Caine. He shows off his collection of classic Japanese tin toy robots, and in the process of describing them, illuminates his own philosophy regarding the proper place of robots in the scheme of the human world. Giving him that more realistic human perspective makes him all the more sinister as a villain, because real-world villains are never villains in their own minds. What gives that sequence special verisimilitude is that Mills obviously knows something about classic Japanese tintoy robots, and includes analogs of very specific examples in the story (as it happens, classic Japanese tintoy robots is also an interest of mine).

So, au contraire to your opinion on this, I hope to see even MORE of these filling-in-the-gaps flashbacks. Some very open areas of the A.B.C. chronology that could use filling-in include:

- The Period between the end of The Meknificent Seven and the beginning of Return to Earth.

- What happened after The Fall and Rise of Ro-Jaws and Hammerstein, the final Ro-Busters story where there is a colony of free robots revealed to be living on Titan-6 (excuse me if I've got the name of the moon wrong here, I'm not near the book for reference).

- There seems to be some time which has passed in between The Medusa War (a.k.a. The Third Element) and The Shadow Warriors (the division of humans on Mars into a Union and Confederacy) that isn't well-explained in THE MEK FILES 03. That could use filling-in.

Also, I'm a little confused on where exactly the Warriors traveled back in time. Was it at the end (or during) The Black Hole (which I've yet to read, as I haven't got all the prior Nemesis volumes yet)?

Or was it after Khronicles of Khaos/Hellbringer (I'm fairly certain those follow one another fairly closely), which take place during the Termight era?

I know at the beginning of Return to Mars, Deadlock makes the decision that they should all return to Mars, they're seen setting off in a ship where they "engage (the) time-space drive" (but no actual mention of whether they're traveling backwards in time) and then when they return to the planet it's mentioned that "centuries have passed" (vague as that is) since their prior adventures in The Meknificent Seven, but then later on in The Shadow Warriors, when Deadlock sends his astral form to eavesdrop on the President of the Confederacy's office in The Red House in Marineris City, as he's approaching the city he mentions that it's "...the ugliest city in the galaxy ... with the possible exception of Termight." This caused me to wonder whether they are now in the era where Earth has become Termight already, or if he's just referring to his own memories of his experiences in the future (through the end of Hellbringer).

Dark Jimbo

Quote from: positronic on 10 April, 2017, 11:21:04 AM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 06 April, 2017, 06:07:47 PM
Well, quite. The tone and style are certainly different these days, but I enjoy ABC Warriors as much as I ever have (well... Apart from wishing we could knock all these bloody flashbacks on the head).

So, au contraire to your opinion on this, I hope to see even MORE of these filling-in-the-gaps flashbacks.

If I was encountering this stuff the same way as you i.e. All in one go via the trade collections, I don'f doubt I'd feel the same. But look at it from the point of view of a prog reader - The Volgan War (the start of the 'flashback era') began in prog 2007. That was late 2006!

So while I've really enjoyed most of the stories, can you imagine how the series seems to have slowed to an absolute crawl, these days, in terms of forward progression? Ten years of flashbacks?! That's a third of my entire life...!
@jamesfeistdraws

positronic

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 10 April, 2017, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: positronic on 10 April, 2017, 11:21:04 AM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 06 April, 2017, 06:07:47 PM
Well, quite. The tone and style are certainly different these days, but I enjoy ABC Warriors as much as I ever have (well... Apart from wishing we could knock all these bloody flashbacks on the head).

So, au contraire to your opinion on this, I hope to see even MORE of these filling-in-the-gaps flashbacks.

If I was encountering this stuff the same way as you i.e. All in one go via the trade collections, I don'f doubt I'd feel the same. But look at it from the point of view of a prog reader - The Volgan War (the start of the 'flashback era') began in prog 2007. That was late 2006!

So while I've really enjoyed most of the stories, can you imagine how the series seems to have slowed to an absolute crawl, these days, in terms of forward progression? Ten years of flashbacks?! That's a third of my entire life...!

I guess I'm not really looking at it in quite the same way as you are. When you speak of "forward progression", that brings to mind some ongoing (or finite, but otherwise fairly long-running) series where there really is a clearly perceptible arc of progression forward. I really don't see that in A.B.C. Warriors at all. There are really 3 or 4 different A.B.C. Warriors series with different backgrounds altogether (or five I guess, if you count Ro-Busters). Six if you count Hammerstein's pre-Meknificent Seven involvement in the Volgan War.

Basically the way I'm seeing it, it doesn't really progress at all, except in some sideways fashion. The only real forward progression here is within a single story arc, or if you want to be slightly more broadminded about it, within the up to 3 or 4 stories that make up each distinct and separate "era". Then it's a reinvention again for a new audience with different tastes. If that seems too vague, then ask yourself what sort of individual progressions do the characters undergo over the course of time? What's Deadlock's overall progression as a character within the series, or Mek-Quake's? What about Blackblood? Or Mongrel?

Deadlock's a pretty sinister bot in the Khaos era, and basically ousts Hammerstein as leader, but becomes more of a heroic type during the Medusa era while still retaining leadership. (Hammerstein is basically played for laughs in the 1990s Khaos-era stories, the "starched shirt" as the object of ridicule.) And then in NEMESIS, Deadlock... (wait, don't spoil it for me, I haven't read it yet).

Mek-Quake during The Medusa War and The Shadow Warriors is almost a completely different character than he is in Ro-Busters (I can't really imagine THAT Mek-Quake ever taking orders from Hammerstein). And then at some point he's back working for Howard Quartz again.

Blackblood tortures Hammerstein for five whole years between Khronicles of Khaos and Hellbringer, yet he's back with the band again (as if he never did) in Medusa Wars/Shadow Warriors and subsequent volumes, taking orders from Hammerstein, while Ham (never seeking revenge?) repeatedly saves his life. Blackblood's a remarkably stable team member for someone whose avowed religious beliefs are based on betrayal. It's hard to account for the Medusa iteration of the Warriors being the same team as the one from the Khaos era, when betrayal of each other was practically a membership requirement (except for Ham of course).

Then there's Mongrol -- first he's simple-minded (but devoted to his beloved lost Lara), then he can't speak at all (but devoted to his beloved Morrigan), then his brain gets replaced by Morrigan's, then his brain is rebooted and he's intelligent enough to take a command position. Personally, I was just relieved when Mills dusted Morrigan (yecch!)

Steelhorn becomes The Mess practically after he's first introduced, then doesn't do much of anything except sit inside a sealed tube (released occasionally) before becoming bonded to Mad George (all of this in The Meknificent Seven). Centuries pass (30 years for the readers) until he's seen again, bonded to Medusa and opposing the Warriors, but then by The Shadow Warriors, he's back on the team again in some realignment of interests that isn't clearly explained.

Oh, and Happy Shrapnel doesn't do all that much in The Meknificent Seven, but then dies somewhere after that and is resurrected by Medusa (again) as Tubal Caine.

And of course I'm leaving out just tons of stuff here (haven't got past the Mars 2.0 era yet), but isn't that enough?

THIS is "forward progression"?? Seems more like random change to me (but I'm sure Deadlock can appreciate it from the Khaotic perspective).


Which is exactly why I believe those gaps, they need a-fillin'.

Dandontdare

Quote from: positronic on 10 April, 2017, 03:12:16 PM
Basically the way I'm seeing it, it doesn't really progress at all, except in some sideways fashion.

That could be a summary of any of Pat Mill's long-running stories!  :lol:

Magnetica

How many times has Slaine's mother's death been covered?

How many times has the Wickerman been covered?

It's got to be two or three times each.

I'm all for filling in the details, but I would prefer new stories.

Smith

Considering every demon repeats the story just to taunt Slaine...a lot.

positronic

Quote from: Magnetica on 11 April, 2017, 04:34:50 AM
How many times has Slaine's mother's death been covered?
I'm all for filling in the details, but I would prefer new stories.

But they ARE new stories, at least part of them is new, and parts overlap with events previously established in older books. I mean if you're reading these things the right way, it isn't a case of "Well, didn't they just update the old story with the more modern style Clint Langley artwork?" Even the parts that are somewhat familiar, Mills is using these new stories to change the perspective and recontextualize what we know (or thought we knew) about the characters.

Comparing Howard Quartz in the newer stories to Howard Quartz in Ro-Busters is a good example. Quartz in the old stories is a pretty comic villain, he's like Ebenezer Scrooge or Scrooge McDuck in a toy robot suit. He looks almost comical, and his miserliness, stinginess, greediness is what is emphasized here to comic effect. But in the new stories, Quartz is several levels more sinister; we know of his involvement in creating the ABC Warriors and supplying warmongering nations worldwide for profit. NONE of that stuff is in Ro-Busters, so as a character, the new stories "recontextualize" the earlier ones. They don't contradict those older stories, but NOW you look at the older version in a different way, knowing all these additional levels of detail about him. Well, isn't that old suit design still kind of... like "kid stuff", it makes him less menacing than he could be? BUT then you understand WHY he has that sort of design sensibility when in RETURN TO MARS, you learn about his robot obsession and how its both inspired and embodied by his collection classic Japanese tintoy robots. It turns him kind of into the future cyborg equivalent to Simon Legree (the cruel slave-master character from Uncle Tom's Cabin) whose philosophy is that you can't be a superior race unless you have an inferior race to lord it over, to bow and scrape and cater to you in total servitude. This is just the most outstanding example that pops to mind of how these aren't just "classic stories retold" with more modern artwork. They kind of rethink aspects of the stories to make them more detailed, believable, and make more sense, or add a hitherto completely unknown aspect.

The other thing I'm a little vague on when someone says "forward" is... forward from where? (The end of The Shadow War?)  I mean, they're ALL taking place in the future. At what point in the future is the ABC Warrior's "Time: The Present" taking place relative to everything else?

Do most of you feel like the next ones to appear should just keep moving forward from beyond The Shadow War for as long as it takes to catch up to The Gothic Empire? Sure, that's by far ONE of the biggest gaps, but it's still not THE biggest. And it's not the only one big enough to fit quite a few new stories into without saying "Well, we've puttied up this hole, now let's move on to the next knothole".

So not having read them yet, perhaps I should ask: Is there any definitive establishment somewhere of when (prior to The Gothic Empire) the ABC Warriors last operated as a team? Or is it definitely nailed down as The Gothic Empire IS the first time they've been together as a group SINCE The Meknificent Seven/Red Planet Blues?

Side question: Was The Gothic Empire originally published before Nemesis Books I-III? I read somewhere that Gothic Empire was supposed to be the original Nemesis story, but then they decided to fill in the backstory.

Personally, I'm dying to find out about what happened to that free robot city on Triton-6 (the one where Ro-Jaws and Hammerstein stayed behind on Earth long enough to delay pursuit and let the other Ro-Busters refugee robots escape). Did Ro-Jaws and/or Hammerstein ever make it back to that moon? If not, then where do they go from there? The period ending with "The Fall & Rise of Ro-Jaws & Hammerstein" is REALLY the beginning of that "unknown" BIGGEST gap that (as far as we know now) ends at The Gothic Empire. Or is that Titan-6 story revisited during the Termight era? That doesn't seem right somehow...

Dark Jimbo

Quote from: positronic on 11 April, 2017, 12:24:15 PM
The other thing I'm a little vague on when someone says "forward" is... forward from where? (The end of The Shadow War?)  I mean, they're ALL taking place in the future. At what point in the future is the ABC Warrior's "Time: The Present" taking place relative to everything else?

Hmm. Not really sure what you mean/why the confusion. Could be a result of your having read the stories in a wonky order?

Spoilers, I guess, but I'm still not quite sure what you have/haven't read - After the ABCs fight the Shadows, they commit Mek-Quake to Broadband Asylum and decide to recruit old comrade Zippo to take his place. By the time they've stopped his execution by Doktor Grobari's G-Men and welcomed him to the team, a disgruntled Mek-Quake has broken old foe Volkhan out of Broafband Asylum and a robot rebellion has been ignited. By the time the ABCs put this down, Blackblood has also defected to Volkhan's side. The destruction of the Red House and the death of President Diaz end the Civil War - (all of which Mek-Quake inadvertantly gets credit for, becoming a major celebrity) - but all the ABC's foes escape to fight another day.

Still a man down, the ABCs decide to recruit another former comrade, Happy Shrapnel (now Tubal Caine). Since the gang last saw him, his adopted 'son' has been killed by Howard Quartz, who they now discover has resurfaced on Mars. Mek-Quake's also rejoined his service, after Blackblood sent him a virus that emptied his bank account of his celebrity millions.  Tubal puts aside the pacifist principles that have stopped him rejoining before now to settle his blood debt. For any of them to defeat Quartz, they'll need to somehow bypass their prime directive. This is achieved when they meet up with Ro-Jaws in Marineris and get the 'defiance code' from him.

So the scene's set for a titanic battle royale with all their enemies - Volkhan, Blackblood and the Volgan 'bots; Quartz (and Mek-Quake); Grobari and Sturn. That story's been teased for a while, and that's the story I want to read now that the pieces are in place - not another 'Hey guys, before we go settle some of these old scores, does anyone remember the time that...'
@jamesfeistdraws

positronic

#147
So you're saying all the prologue/epilogue pages in the RETURN TO trilogy are taking place in the order they were published, and immediately after the previous (which wasn't the previous in publication order, that would be The Volgan Wars 1-4) Mars story (which was The Shadow Warriors)?

Or did I get that wrong again? Are there parts of The Volgan Wars (it's next, as soon as I can get) taking place immediately chronologically prior (prologue/epilogues again) to the RETURN TO trilogy, again in order of publication?

Okay, I've read the second paragraph, and paragraphic three is the end of RtRo-Busters?

IndigoPrime

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 11 April, 2017, 01:10:14 PMThat story's been teased for a while, and that's the story I want to read now that the pieces are in place - not another 'Hey guys, before we go settle some of these old scores, does anyone remember the time that...'
Or another ten-parter on getting the gang back together.

positronic

#149
Okay, I see if you guys are getting these one as a time contemporary as released in order, it's only like... maybe 16-25 pages worth of the new story per book, which is a weird way to carry on. Why not just figure out some ratio of 2/3 or 1/2 and alternate between new and flashback, but fill the whole book with a complete graphic novel? Or 1/1 would be fairest I guess, but maybe like 2 new/1 fb, with the WHOLE book being that story?