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The completely self absorbed 2000ad re-read thread

Started by Colin YNWA, 22 May, 2016, 02:30:29 PM

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Colin YNWA

So Steve Dillons' passing is dominating my thoughts and since I'm reading the Progs around the time he started working on the  Galaxies Greatest I wondered if I'd stumble into one of those funny things and stumble across the issues he first appeared in tonight.

I didn't.

But he was still in my thoughts and it made me reflect on a post I was going to write the other day and didn't get around to and that being about John Richardson. Tonight it seems strangly fitting so here I go. See reading the start of Mean Arena it has real ups and downs, the story has such potential but doesn't really fulfil it, washing around all over the place and lacking direction and focus. The one thing that is constant and positive and very surprising is the art. I'm really, really enjoying John Richardson's art on the strip. Its superb.

The thing is even though I've read this series before, back in the day and a few years ago on re-read I still don't expect his art, nor for it to be around for so long. Now that's no slight on Mr Richardson. He's good, he's really good. Rather its testament to Steve Dillon. Who though on the strip for far less time leaves his mark on it in such a way that I can't think beyond his work on the series. Steve Dillon's work is so great on it it drowns out John Richardsons.

The aim of this post when first conceived was to redemn Richardson's art and highlight its brilliance. Now alas that's changed and regardless of how great his art is all I'm thinking about again is that Steve Dillon's was so supreme that still it dominates my idea of the strip.

Colin YNWA

So early 206 and for some the Golden age is here. I have to disagree... just. Certainly up to issue 200 the Prog has some real highs and the lows are getting smoothed out. Nothing is unreadably bad. Dredd with some stone old classics starting 1981 with The Fink and Return to Armegeddon is great. When Strontium Dog is in the Prog things are top notch too, The Bad Boys Bust a superb short and one of my favourite Johnny Alpha stories, so much squeezed into 4 short parts. But Mean Arena is, art aside, just all over the place and I don't warm to Meltdown Man as much as others (I'll be returning to this and Armageddon next time as I've been trying to work out why I love one so much and the other not at all). Some cute Tharg shorts too. Nothing is terrible, but its not quite golden

So we get to Prog 200 and I start to see why people think that might mark the Golden Age. While the shorts that run up to 200 are great and one, one of my all time favourites (mnetioned above) Portrait of the Mutant starting in 200 is probably my favourite Strontium Dog story ever. Its wonderful stuff. Dredd continues to be at an absolute peak and Return to Armgeddon just gets better and better. Okay so Meltdown Man continues on its aimless way so its down to a run of one offs which I thought might be better, but is pretty hit and miss. See I thought this was when Alan Moore really started to turn in the Future Shocks, but not quite and the one's not by him have been quite week.

So yeah I can certainly see why some might mark these early 200 issues as the start of the Golden Age, but for me 3 solid golld strips just ain't enough and since Meltdown man ain't working for me we're not there yet. But we're getting close...

Colin YNWA

Return to Armageddon vs. Meltdown Man

Okay so best to set my stall out early... well in case anyone has missed my whittering to this point.

Return to Armageddon > Meltdown Man

in fact

Return to Armageddon >>>>>>>>> Meltdown Man

But what's intriguing me is why? Clearly these things a quite subjective and so I'm not sure why I'm worrying about this. The answer is probably just - I really prefer RtA - why over analysis... thing is we're fanboys over analysisings what we love... well some more than others and I hope I'm not as bad as... well okay I'll not go there, but for some reason this particular fanboy worry is really bugging me.

Why these two cases, well I see so much in common with the two. Both are long rambling epics, often lurching from one thing to the next. Both are written by writers deep in IPC's ranks from the 70s, but not ever reaching the heights of star (I'd suggest). Both are drawn by artists with incredibly strong, distinct, individual styles. Both have action plots but with a thread of humour running underneath. Finally both have a strong following with those that know them. So why do I love one and not the other?

Cos I do... nah I think its more than that. I think the stories feel like they are both of the old skool, a tradition that 2000ad is moving kids comics away from and while they have that I feel one absorbs the DNA of a 2000ad story better. Its darker and while chaotic, it holds itself together far more successfully. MMan feels like its strongly planted in the stories of old. Its villians are slight and pantomine. In RtA the villian is delicous, if straightforward, but also pushed back so other rotters flow up and take there place allowing 'the Dark One' to remain infallible - while Leeshar and his crew in MMan are allowed to fail time and again and thus lose their credibility.

Our heroes are both fun. Nick Stone of MMan is the gruff hardman 2000ad has used well so often, but I'll come back later to why I don't think he works too well. Amtrak in fantastically atypical a lot of the time. For the first section absent (or a baby), for the mid section a melting mess and only in the final act finally a blonde haired, blue eyed (I assume) hero... though even then he spends lots of his time being rescued by his rich and varied supporting task.

As for the stories I think RtA works while MMan fails as its made of a wonderful, diverse selection of short stories craftily weaved together and thus the story, while spralling at all times feels fresh and interesting. It never gets tired. Its always offering something new and compelling and somehow, miraculously coherant. MMan follows one story seemingly endlessly, wobbling from one idea to the next, its long time in the Prog being made to feel like a burden, obliging the creators to cram another idea into the single sized pot.

RtA also feels more 2000ad to me, its genuinely dark at times, different and gripping, the humour is jet back. MMan has clearly been filtered through the 2000ad template but doesn't seem to have been able to shake off its it IPC children's comics origins and the humour is more slapstick and clumsy.

Finally I think my prefence is rooted in the art. Jesus Redondo is a real favourite of mine and he suits the strips tone perfectly. Delievering fantastic panels of grim black lines, scratching out the dark world the story is creating. Yet when he needs to he delivers beauty and clarity. His storytelling and characters acting is perfect. Belardinelli I'm a lot less keen on and while he too is a perfect choice for the strip (almost) there lies the problem. He creates a wonderful world and allows the natural environment within it pulse with chaotic energy. The problem is his central human characters feel two dimensional and the acting stiff and lifeless. Nick Stone, as mentioned above, therefore doesn't work as well as he might and looks gruff, but actually not that hard, whatever we are told about him. I appreciate that many disagree.

So yeah I'm fascinated as to why I have such vastly different opinions about these two peers. I can think of many reason why Return to Armageddon is better than Meltdown Man. In the end though is it just subjective? I do wonder if I look at the art and judge from there? I don't think so, but its possible. I do wonder however if the artists were swapped on the stories would my opinion change also? We'll never know... but its fun to over analysis isn't it.

Magnetica

First of all I am surprised no-one has commented on this - I would have thought there would be a lot of discussion on this. For me they were two of the formative 2000AD stories but as with my views on when the golden age was that is probably because of when I started reading the Prog.

In order to put forward my views I will need to slightly break my own rule as I have only the-read RtA and not MM ( I bought it in the half price sale but haven't got round to it yet).

So anyway...

I always preferred Meltdown Man to RtA. As with Colin I think that the art was a lot to do with that but the other way round.

Redondo's art I felt always had a scrathy feel to it, that I don't like, where as Belardinelli was always nice and clean and he is great and this sort of fantasy setting.

On re-reading RtA I was struck by now little the Destroyer actually appears. That was not what I remembered. I always found him a deeply horrifying villan. That is probably another reason I preferred Meltdown Man as I prefer fantasy (and sci-if) to horror.

AlexF

I came to both stories in weird, small chunks in Quality COmics reprints (2000AD Showcase, I think it was called). Meaning I read random epsiodes and not always in order, and certainly not from the beginning. I was hooked by both, but at the time I inherently warmed to Meltdown Man more because it was a LOT easier to follow in any given episode. I found it much easier to understand who each character was and their motivations, while RtA was mega confusing.

When I finally amassed the relevant progs to read both serials through properly, I initially stuck with MM as the better, more asatisfying story, whil RtA just had an annoying cop-out ending. On later re-reads, though, I'm all over RtA, mostly for the reasons Colin suggests. It's just more classically 2000AD, full of weird ideas, twists and truns, and a host of characters with more layers than just good and evil (although the animals with stereotypical traits is well done by Hebden in MM). I've even grown to like the ending, which works better the more I read it, what with the theme of the endless cycle of birth, death and the whole Universe.

MM, meanwhile, becomes just a bit too long. I actually enjoy it more just reading random episodes rather than slogging through the whole thing. Dare I say it, it's a wee bit childish. The art on both is superb, and there's some great dialogue in both, too, so I wouldn't write MM off. Pretty sure I'd have loved it had I read it as it came out, it's certianly one of those series where you invest in the characters and just want to see the story through, even though you know it can only really have one ending. The mid-story reveal is a blinder, I'll give it that, too.

Just recently I had hoped that Brink would be a series that dared to follow the model of just going on and on forever, with a long unfolding plot but I guess that's not how it works these days, and instead we'll get 2-3 books over a few years. Honestly, these 21st century artists and their need for a reasonable work/life balance.

Fungus

One of these days I'll finally re-read these stories and I remain curious which will work better. What I do remember is that missing the absolute start of MM, and intricate art of Belardinelli made it slightly incomprehensible. While RTA possibly had a richer plot, so week on week needed more attention paid. RTA wins, but To Be Confirmed.

At the time, Dredd, Alpha and even Mean Arena felt like the heart of the prog. As we know, a re-read now could change all that.

sheridan

I always loved Meltdown Man, from when I had the odd prog with an episode her and there to when I had the complete run and could read it in one sitting, which I've done a few times.  In fact, I found my copies of 2000AD Extreme with the Cliff Robinson covers and had to stop myself from reading past the fifth episode, as I had other things to do (like my prog slog which is still in the twenties!)
I've read all of Return to Armageddon in the progs, but not sure I've ever dug out the progs and only read that story - something I had done with Meltdown Man before I had the story collected in reprint form.

What do I like about it?  The artwork is some of Belardinelli's best; the concept of eugenically modified lifeforms based on animals being oppressed; names like 'Caleb the Camelman'; the human buildings; the yujee buildings that reveal (plus the clue given to readers a few progs earlier).

Not enough maps in stories these days - not even in Judge Dredd, which used to be the most likely to feature a map!

I'll reserve judgement on Armageddon until I've re-read the story - love Redondo's artwork, though not to the extent I do Belardinelli's - sorry, Jesus!*  I'm not religious but like use of Genesis and Revelations imagery** as plot-fodder as much as the next person.

*great to see he's still working in British and American comics - prefer his black and white stuff though, even now.

**other books do exist, but page for page, G&R get the highest STN ratio :)

Colin YNWA

 Just read the conclusion of RtA and its MUCH more satisfying than I remember. Okay the its all a game played by little children is all a bit Star Trek cliche but somehow The Dark Evilly One's final fate is very satisfying. Amtrak's heroic find battle seems utterly fitting and his sense of futlity at the end even more so. Its all really rather good and to be honest RtA really is an unheralded classic. I mean its well regarded but its not normally regarded as being up there.

In other news Colin Wilson really is in my top 5 Dredd artists. His work is stunning.

Grant Goggans

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 08 October, 2016, 09:23:52 PM
Now in 1980 I'm pretty sure the 30p difference in price between the Dredd and the 2000ad annual would have bought you a decent family car, but it, even to my 8 year old mind, would surely have been worth it for the Mike McMahon art over those 30 pages.

I just wanted to say that I bought the complete Sweeney on DVD earlier this year and a few episodes have some scenes at dodgy used car dealers.  I'm fascinated by the prices of cars in the 1970s.  Colin's statement may read like hyperbole, but it's actually true.

Colin YNWA

Quote from: Grant Goggans on 05 November, 2016, 07:23:12 AM
I just wanted to say that I bought the complete Sweeney on DVD earlier this year and a few episodes have some scenes at dodgy used car dealers.  I'm fascinated by the prices of cars in the 1970s.  Colin's statement may read like hyperbole, but it's actually true.

Now Mr Goggans could you please stop suggesting I talk sense, we know that way leds to maddess!

Anyway I reach Prog 222 and a very significent Prog as it sees the start of Nemesis the Warlock. Looking back almost 40 years its hard to get a proper perspective on quite how astonishing this must have been. I was there, its lodged in my mind but I'm not going to pretend my memories of the impact of this story haven't been filter through the 36 years its influenced. Beyond the astonishing visiuals, glorious, sharp and ugly in all the right places, its so dark. 2000ad is of course dark, we've just finished Return to Armageddon, but surely Nemesis takes it to a whole new level? Its the perfect summation of the way 2000ad has been developing, so very anti-authoritarian, so darkly funny, so densely packed yet easy to read, so superbly realised and yes so thrilling in just the 4 pages we have a very clear vision of why The Galaxy's Greatest has survived so long while so many others - an entire industry - as fallen away. Just wonderful.

It does all this with the confidence that the comic as a whole shows at this point. Its achieves all with ownly the bariest mention the two main characters so loved from the stories short (in terms of pages) development.

Even comparing it to the rest of the Prog, a great Tharg story full of dark comedy, a neat, beautiful Future Shock, a Dredd ending a great run of stories with an admitedly slightly lousey ending and the comparitively childish Mean Arena and Meltdown Man - though again both at least having something of the comics potential in the art - good though some of this stuff is none of it can stand close to Mills and O'Neill's masterpiece. Yes even the Wagner and Grant Dredd seems to take a dip as if to add special emphasis on this!

For this reason, while the start of Nemesis marks a line in the sand, clearly shows what the previous 221 progs have been building towards, surely what surrounds it and how much it stands out demonstrate that we're not quite there yet, we're not quite golden? But we can see very clearly where we're going.

Magnetica

Yes I have been waiting for you to reach this point. Prog 222, the first episode of Nemesis proper.

Surely the single greatest opening episode of any 2000AD story. Ever.*

37 years on, it is still awesome.

I can't imagine it ever being bettered.

* except when you reach the mid 300s I might have to qualify this a bit. It's a bit like my favourite band - it depends on who I am listening to at the time.

BTW I have started my Meltdown Man re-read. 5 episodes in and I am enjoying it immensely - some overly clunky explanatory dialogue notwithstanding. But so far I still maintain MM >> RtA & MB >>>>JR.  :lol:

Colin YNWA

Quote from: Magnetica on 06 November, 2016, 12:03:48 PM

Surely the single greatest opening episode of any 2000AD story...

It's bold, it's brash but that statement might just be right. I'll try to bare it in mind as the reread continues. Off the top of my head I can't think of a challenger.

Might even forgive the herasary for as Torque himself said

Be Pure
BE VIGIANT
Be a bigger fan of JR than MB

Colin YNWA

Okay so Prog 224 then...

Well Wagner and Grant weren't going to be held in check for long were they. 224 sees them and Dredd back on truly scintillating form as Brian Bolland produced some eye meltingly detailed art as 'Judge Death Lives!'. Add to that Strontium Dog returning and while its no  Portrait of a Mutant, The Gronk Affair is fun and I've always had haunted memories of the glutonous villians swallowing the cooked gronk. Nemesis of course continues to be devine and add to that a lovely Future Shock and we're there aren't we?

Okay Meltdown Man thrashes towards its increasingly chaotic conclusion, but even that serves as a reminder of the simpler time's that 2000ad came from and how twisted that's become.

So yeah maybe I'd go for this as the single issue to signify the age we're entering. Even the Nerve Centre is on the inside cover where I always expect to find it and hadn't been for quite some time.

What's left now of course is to see how golden I think this age is. Something I have lingering doubts about.

Oh and in other news since last Prog (223) the Prog has doubled in price in its 4 years history to this point. Gosh you forget how hard these times were. Mind Raiders featured in 224, Time Bandit adverts running in the Prog alongside Clash of the Titan cartoon trialers (used to love those things) I reckon my 9 year old brain was too distracted by these economic challenges! Thank heavens my parents could find the 16p.


Colin YNWA

Okay two things from Prog 228.

First though I'm no Rogue Trooper fan I was plesently surprised how strong the first episode was. Wonderful art aside which I knew it was full of violent mystery. Really enjoyed it.

Secondly while I know 'Fist of Dredd' is widely regarded as the single greatest panel in the comics history how great is 'I am the nemesis - I am the warlock - I am the shape of things to come.' It's a folly to pretend it's better than 'Fist of Dredd' but it's damned close isn't it... damned, damned close.