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Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Started by TordelBack, 23 January, 2017, 04:29:12 PM

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Jim_Campbell

Quote from: SIP on 22 April, 2017, 11:23:08 AM
I think with Rogue One you need to be in on the continuity to get something out of it, the characters are dry, hollow and it's really hard to care in isolation.

By contrast, my wife, who is not a Star Wars fan by any stretch of the imagination, required nothing more by way of explanation than: "You know how the first Star Wars movie revolved around the stolen plans for the Death Star? This film tells you how they got stolen."

She thought it was the best movie we saw last year. There were people audibly sobbing in the cinema by the film's climax. I really don't think you can assert that no one could make an emotional connection to these characters, nor that a detailed knowledge of continuity was required to appreciate it.
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To my mind, the main problem with R1 was that they tried to make a Star Wars film and not a film set in the Star Wars universe. That is to say, it's as if someone pulled a load of Star Wars toys out of a bag and tried to write a story around them rather than writing a good story and then fitting Star Wars equivalents into it.

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SIP

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 22 April, 2017, 11:31:38 AM
Quote from: SIP on 22 April, 2017, 11:23:08 AM
I think with Rogue One you need to be in on the continuity to get something out of it, the characters are dry, hollow and it's really hard to care in isolation.

By contrast, my wife, who is not a Star Wars fan by any stretch of the imagination, required nothing more by way of explanation than: "You know how the first Star Wars movie revolved around the stolen plans for the Death Star? This film tells you how they got stolen."

She thought it was the best movie we saw last year. There were people audibly sobbing in the cinema by the film's climax. I really don't think you can assert that no one could make an emotional connection to these characters, nor that a detailed knowledge of continuity was required to appreciate it.

Fair enough Jim! Can't argue with the fact that people certainly seemed to enjoy it.

I am very interested to know if those of you have seen it for a second time (or more) still feel that it holds up after a single viewing. For me, that's when it really shows its weaknesses.

dweezil2

The flaws are certainly more apparent on subsequent viewings.

It's puzzling that Edward's appears to struggles with creating convincing characters that interact naturally and aren't mearly cyphers who spout exposition, especially as he showed promise at this with Monsters, although not with the turgid Godzilla, maybe because Monsters was his own creation?

Also, I wish the otherwise fine Felicity Jones didn't appear to be chewing on a wasp every time she was called upon to show emotion.

It's not a bad film and its somewhat tragically bleak tone is actually one of its strengths, but that script could of done with a few more drafts before it was shot, that's for sure.
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JOE SOAP

Quote from: radiator on 21 April, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
Finn's ability to wield a lightsaber in the midst of battle is dumb (and on a related note, they also make lightsabers less and less cool every time they introduce weapons like the baton that can counter them).

Even as a trained soldier Finn is a bit shit with a lightsaber and why should a weapon like the lightsaber have no match?

Fans criticse the new films for not 'evolving' but when they try to introduce new elements fans complain Star Wars is not like it used to be.

JOE SOAP

Quote from: dweezil2 on 22 April, 2017, 12:29:18 PM
The flaws are certainly more apparent on subsequent viewings.

It's puzzling that Edward's appears to struggles with creating convincing characters that interact naturally and aren't mearly cyphers who spout exposition

I found Cassian Andor, Chirrut Îmwe, K-2SO, Baze Malbus, Orson Krennic, Galen Erso no less convincing as characters than most of those that are simply drawn in the OT. Rogue One has story problems but most of its characters function perfectly fine for the type of men-on-a-mission film it is.

Eric Plumrose

Quote from: radiator on 21 April, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
The First Order is problematic, and they don't really make a lot of sense as an entity, but it's hard to see how they could feasibly even make an Episode VII without resurrecting the Empire in one form or another.

There's three decades between RETURN and FORCE. The Rebels won. The Republic was (presumably) restored. Have a corrupt Republic be the new big bad. The opening crawl might allude to this but it's when Tekka's village is wiped out not by Stormtroopers but Rebel Alliance-looking soldiers that shit gets real. Have some Leia/Théoden thing going on with Kylo Wormren.

Whatever, just bloody-well make some actual bastard effort to do something -- anything! -- that holds together and is legitimately its own thing rather than being so beholden to what's gone before. But, no. Here's another Death Star Starkiller Base.

Quote from: radiator on 21 April, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
On your fan service point - it's totally a subjective thing, but I find the blatant fan service in R1 far more pernicious and distracting than anything in TFA. Ultimately, I liked all the characters in TFA so I felt invested in the plot to some degree. It had a trace of the old movie magic about it. In Rogue One I felt absolutely nothing.

ROGUE ONE is Disney-sanctioned fan fiction. The more wanky moments no doubt passed by me because I'm not a fan.

That initial draw though of seeing older versions of Luke, Han, and Leia ended up being one of FORCE's major weaknesses. Here's Han! Completely the same but grey and doddery! Here's Leia! Interchangeable with every other Rebel General! They're there because.

Unlike Luke who will presumably serve some actual narrative purpose rather than being shoehorned in. But FORCE at times is so excruciatingly poor I've little-to-no desire to chance EPISODE VIII, despite the new cast. Which is a shame, because Daisy et al proved the STAR WARS movie franchise doesn't need the further adventures of Luke, Han, and Leia.
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IndigoPrime

My wife and I enjoyed Rogue One. It wasn't amazing, but then a rewatch of the original Star Wars trilogy a few years back didn't go down as well as we thought it would anyway – too much Smurfette being the main issue. Rogue One sadly suffered from that too (seriously – is the entire Star Wars universe bereft of women?), and it was odd that the character I liked most was a robot, but the thing held together reasonably well and had some nice set pieces.

TFA was fun enough, too. Like RO, it kind of went through the motions, but I certainly don't feel I wasted time watching it (unlike, say, Doctor Strange). I do wonder what people's expectations are these days. Star Wars was very much a product of its time and visually arresting in 1977. It has some superb production design, but middling writing and characters. In a sense, those new ones are more of the same.

That all said, Rogue One should really have dialled down on the CGI rent-a-dead-humans. They really were a truly abysmal idea that should never have left the storyboards (or at most initial demos).

dweezil2

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 April, 2017, 12:46:10 PM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 22 April, 2017, 12:29:18 PM
The flaws are certainly more apparent on subsequent viewings.

It's puzzling that Edward's appears to struggles with creating convincing characters that interact naturally and aren't mearly cyphers who spout exposition

I found Cassian Andor, Chirrut Îmwe, K-2SO, Baze Malbus, Orson Krennic, Galen Erso no less convincing as characters than most of those that are simply drawn in the OT. Rogue One has story problems but most of its characters function perfectly fine for the type of men-on-a-mission film it is.

To give Rogue One its dues, the dialogue is Mamet-esque compared to the prequel's piffle! 
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SIP

Quote from: dweezil2 on 22 April, 2017, 01:42:07 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 April, 2017, 12:46:10 PM
Quote from: dweezil2 on 22 April, 2017, 12:29:18 PM
The flaws are certainly more apparent on subsequent viewings.

It's puzzling that Edward's appears to struggles with creating convincing characters that interact naturally and aren't mearly cyphers who spout exposition

I found Cassian Andor, Chirrut Îmwe, K-2SO, Baze Malbus, Orson Krennic, Galen Erso no less convincing as characters than most of those that are simply drawn in the OT. Rogue One has story problems but most of its characters function perfectly fine for the type of men-on-a-mission film it is.

To give Rogue One its dues, the dialogue is Mamet-esque compared to the prequel's piffle!

Like them or not, I think George Lucas tried to be original and inventive with the prequels. For all their huge failings they did consistently bring something new to the table. They aren't the incestuous rehash of existing material that Rogue One represents.

JOE SOAP

#100
Quote from: SIP on 22 April, 2017, 02:17:57 PMLike them or not, I think George Lucas tried to be original and inventive with the prequels. For all their huge failings they did consistently bring something new to the table. They aren't the incestuous rehash of existing material that Rogue One represents.

Aesthetically, yes, but in much of everything else it was a stilted exercise in re-ordering tropes from the OT without much flair.

Rogue One does bring other elements to the world of Star Wars that didn't exist in the films beforehand – expanding the notion of the Force's place in the galaxy; grounding the action somewhat, and leading the film with characters not previously heard of.


Mardroid

Quote from: TordelBack on 22 April, 2017, 06:29:57 AM
Finn's ability to wield a lightsabre... I think we saw different movies. In the one I watched, he turns it on twice, waves it about wildly hitting people and then gets comprehensively flattened both times.

I thought he actually held up pretty well against Kylo Ren. Okay, Ren soundly beat him, (which was to be expected) but he held his own longer than I'd have expected.

I didn't really find that unbelievable though, when you consider that Stormtrooper with the baton thing. The New Order are aware that Jedi were instrumental in defeating their predecessor, so during their rise during the new Republic era (if you can call it an 'era') they make sure they give certain trooper's training in hand to hand combat with those special weapons, possibly even tech they dug up from the Prequel time period.  (Considering those droids with those electrostaff weapons.)

Jedi might be a minority now, (well, basically just Luke after the destruction of his academy)  but they don't want to take any chances, and I'd imagine those gizmos are pretty handy against other non-ranged weapons. Staves and axe type things seem to be in use within the Star Wars universe, as are blades of different kinds.I guess Finn had a bit of that training too.

Anyhow: Rogue One and The Force Awakens. I like them both. I feel the latter was constructed worse, being an almost beat-for-beat retelling of Star Wars (okay, Finn the defecting stormtrooper was a rather different element) and relying on fate/coincidence a bit too much ("Lets escape on that saucer shaped ship. Oh look at who just happens to be parked up in orbit...")but it was fun and had a good heart.

Rogue One however managed to pull off a much more original story, even despite being set between other films. It was bleak, sure, but it also had heart. The better of the two films, I think, from a structure/story point of view, but The Force Awakens, was FUN (apologies for repeating myself)!

I'm very much looking forward to Episode VIII. I'm particularly curios about Luke's line, right at the end of the trailer... (I won't spoil it for those who intentionally avoided the trailer.)

SIP

#102
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 April, 2017, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: SIP on 22 April, 2017, 02:17:57 PMLike them or not, I think George Lucas tried to be original and inventive with the prequels. For all their huge failings they did consistently bring something new to the table. They aren't the incestuous rehash of existing material that Rogue One represents.

Aesthetically, yes, but in much of everything else it was a stilted exercise in re-ordering tropes from the OT without much flair.

Rogue One does bring other elements to the world of Star Wars that didn't exist in the films beforehand – expanding the notion of the Force's place in the galaxy; grounding the action somewhat, and leading the film with characters not previously heard of.

I'm not sure that is fair, there is a wealth of development in the prequel trilogy from the operation of the Republic, the form of the jedi order, the development of the sith, the rise of Palpatine and even the nature of the force itself. There was more than enough material in the prequel films to fire up another 18 years of expanded universe.

Apart from the introduction of opposing factions within the rebellion, the one original and worthwhile development in Rogue One was the explanation of the death stars weakness. Other than that we got yet more new trooper designs and a couple of mostly forgettable environments, along with far too many distracting fan-pleasing cameos by the likes of Dr Evazan, ponda baba, dejarik, probe droids, chopper, hera  syndulla, the ghost, threepio , r2, the new hope pilots etc.

And then there's bor gullet......geez.

The Legendary Shark

Damn, you fixed "probe druids" before I could post this:

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SIP