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Moore vs. Morrison. This time its WAR!!!

Started by Colin YNWA, 25 November, 2012, 07:31:10 AM

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starscape

Quote from: Professor Bear on 26 November, 2012, 07:17:17 PM
The article Colin links to at the top of the page has similar anecdotes from Dez Skinn about how Moore (and by inference, other Warrior contributors) didn't take kindly to other people writing their strips when Morrison wrote a Kid Miracleman short story and submitted it without consulting with anyone if this was good form - and notably, he still doesn't see anything wrong with trying to nick someone else's job by going behind their back to that person's boss.  I'm sort of with Moore on that one but think it was cool of Skinn to respect that his creators were telling stories rather than creating franchise sandboxes - he didn't need Moore's permission to run that KM story, but he asked for it anyway and respected when Moore declined.
But that's not what happened.  Morrison asked Moore if it was ok, only to be told it's not.  Morrison then respected that, even though KM wasn't Moore's concept/character and Grant didn't need permission.  If it's cool of Dez, then it must be cool of Grant surely?
Quote from: we are all roger godpleton on 26 November, 2012, 09:01:56 PM
Isn't one of the things at the heart of their mutual antagonism Moore's position on creators' rights?...To Moore's way of thinking, Morrisson's a scab, helping reduce (even further) the likelihood of DC/Marvel/Rebellion responding to the withdrawal of his labour by agreeing to his terms.
Only if it's a fairly recent falling out.  For years, Moore had no problem working on Batman, Green Lantern, Superman etc.  That possibly includes Marvelman too, based on whom you believe - for the record, Mick Anglo didn't seem to have a problem at the time but that's a whole other argument.  Anyway, the falling out seems to precede Alan's change of opinion.

I also don't see Grant coming out badly in this.  Putting something right, rather than be barracked from afar over untruths doesn't seem to unfair to me.  If it was simply a lowly fanboy, it would be a little pathetic.  But to be subject to unfair criticism from one of comics' leading lights, I can see why that needs straightening.

And after all that, I'm still not entirely sure why Moore dislikes Morrison so much.  I don't see Grant being influenced any more than Moore 'ripping off' Stan Lee in his earlier years, or Gardner Fox in his mid-times.  There must be something else, I'm sure.

Colin YNWA


Frank

Quote from: starscape on 27 November, 2012, 03:41:45 AM
I also don't see Grant coming out badly in this.  Putting something right, rather than be barracked from afar over untruths doesn't seem to unfair to me.  If it was simply a lowly fanboy, it would be a little pathetic.  But to be subject to unfair criticism from one of comics' leading lights, I can see why that needs straightening.

... but he was responding to something a lowly fanboy had written, which dredged up historic quotes rather than publishing anything new. Going into such detail concerning how much work small press work he'd had published, to query Moore's description of him as a fledgling writer, is endearing but unnecessary, given everything Morrison's gone on to achieve since, and makes him seem a little thin skinned - or keen to keep the dispute going.

When a high profile figure has something they want to get off their chest, the traditional PR way of doing so is to bury it within some big news announcement. Morrisson had a puff piece in the Daily Record last year, the headline of which concerned him apparently being contracted to produce the screenplay for a Barry Sonnenfeld film called Dinosaurs vs Aliens (!), in which the interviewer asked Morrison whether he was jealous that Mark Millar had made more films than him - "Mark does his thing. He creates comic books and tries to sell them as properties, but I write movies. They are different things. I live over in LA and write for the studios. Mark was my protégé for 10 years and has gone on and done stuff. We both do our own thing".

Morrison responded to the question with the weary resignation of a man tired of journos stirring the pot of the long-simmering fued with his former protege, but the feature included plenty of mentions for the Supergods book he was promoting, which I'm sure were agreed in advance and a condition of the interview being granted in the first place ... a cynical man would say that fueds like those between Moore/Morrison/Millar are good human interest angles for journalists to latch onto. How and why nonsense like this started isn't half as interesting as seeing how readers line up for and against, or who they perceive to be the injured party and why.

Modern Panther

Both gentlemen are missing the very real possibility that they are the product of each others imagination, conjured to life through the power of magic.

Richmond Clements

Quote from: Temponaut on 27 November, 2012, 10:27:28 AM
Both gentlemen are missing the very real possibility that they are the product of each others imagination, conjured to life through the power of magic.
You may have a point... Seem's they're both ripping if Bill Hicks.
"Life is a dream and we are all the imaginations of ourselves."

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: Professor Bear on 26 November, 2012, 07:17:17 PM
The article Colin links to at the top of the page has similar anecdotes from Dez Skinn about how Moore (and by inference, other Warrior contributors) didn't take kindly to other people writing their strips when Morrison wrote a Kid Miracleman short story and submitted it without consulting with anyone if this was good form - and notably, he still doesn't see anything wrong with trying to nick someone else's job by going behind their back to that person's boss.

Not at all like Moore writing those Ro-Busters and ABC Warriors stories, then? Given Pat's, err, lack of enthusiasm for other writers tackling his characters, I feel fairly confident that Alan didn't do Pat the courtesy of writing him a letter before submitting those stories.

Cheers

Jim
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

judda fett

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 27 November, 2012, 10:34:15 AM
Quote from: Temponaut on 27 November, 2012, 10:27:28 AM
Both gentlemen are missing the very real possibility that they are the product of each others imagination, conjured to life through the power of magic.
You may have a point... Seem's they're both ripping if Bill Hicks.
"Life is a dream and we are all the imaginations of ourselves."

Its going to take a 'Wizard Off' TM to settle this once and for all.

Charlie boy

Quote from: judda fett on 27 November, 2012, 01:24:15 PM
Its going to take a 'Wizard Off' TM to settle this once and for all.
MVM
Whoever wins... we lose.

Dandontdare

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 27 November, 2012, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 26 November, 2012, 07:17:17 PM
The article Colin links to at the top of the page has similar anecdotes from Dez Skinn about how Moore (and by inference, other Warrior contributors) didn't take kindly to other people writing their strips when Morrison wrote a Kid Miracleman short story and submitted it without consulting with anyone if this was good form - and notably, he still doesn't see anything wrong with trying to nick someone else's job by going behind their back to that person's boss.

Not at all like Moore writing those Ro-Busters and ABC Warriors stories, then? Given Pat's, err, lack of enthusiasm for other writers tackling his characters, I feel fairly confident that Alan didn't do Pat the courtesy of writing him a letter before submitting those stories.

Cheers

Jim

.. and the fact that the majority of Alan Moore's works rips of/homages/references (delete according to taste) characters and stories from other people, a technique which he's surely taken as far as it could possibly go in LOEG. Apart from Halo Jones and V for Vendetta, I'm finding it hard to think of any AM story that doesn't pastiche actual characters, or at the very least easilly recognisable character types. This isn't a complaint, as what he does with them is wonderful, just shows a bit of a brass neck to accuse other people of ripping off his work.

zombemybabynow

I've adored almost everything moore has done: watchmen, v etc - 'til he got to his current sex obsesion! (latter loeg and 'strange girls?!)

Thought morrisson's zur en arrh batman arc was awesome but have found his methods mostly seem to be; start at the end and work back, start at the end and work back!

1 all, i guess

Good manners & bad breath get you nowhere

TordelBack

Quote from: zombemybabynow on 27 November, 2012, 02:50:13 PM
I've adored almost everything moore has done: watchmen, v etc - 'til he got to his current sex obsesion! (latter loeg and 'strange girls?!)

Lost Girls started publication about 1991, along with From Hell in Bissette's much-missed Taboo.  That's a 'current sex obsession' that's over 20 years old, or to put in another way, almost two-thirds of Moore's career.  FWIW I'm all for Moore and his unconventional sex.

Professor Bear

I could do without Moore's arty porn, to be honest, as the sex scenes are usually the one part of any story that gets in the way of the rest of it - a whole volume of just sex scenes to me is like having an action movie that was just car chases.

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 27 November, 2012, 10:34:15 AMYou may have a point... Seem's they're both ripping if Bill Hicks.
"Life is a dream and we are all the imaginations of ourselves."

I think that might be from from Mark Twain's Mysterious Stranger - but I applaud any efforts to get Bill Hicks into this conversation so we can all start slagging Denis Leary.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 27 November, 2012, 12:20:30 PMNot at all like Moore writing those Ro-Busters and ABC Warriors stories, then?

Bad example, Jim - I will irrationally defend Pat Mills, too!
But as with the KM story in Warrior, spin-offs from properties owned by the publisher are the purview of editorial and not the talent.  Dan Abnett and Gordon Rennie were just doing their job when they did Flesh spin-offs, but I doubt even if they were knocked back by Pat kicking up a fuss at the time, they wouldn't be bitching on an internet blog thirty years later about one five page story they tried and failed to get published.  Although if that did happen, I like to think we'd at least credit the editor for allowing the creator some measure of control over the characters, a stance I can only really recall being practiced by Matt Smith, or Alan McKenzie that time he gave the rights to Luke Kirby back to the writer.

Quote from: Dandontdare on 27 November, 2012, 02:23:50 PMand the fact that the majority of Alan Moore's works rips of/homages/references (delete according to taste) characters and stories from other people, a technique which he's surely taken as far as it could possibly go in LOEG. Apart from Halo Jones and V for Vendetta, I'm finding it hard to think of any AM story that doesn't pastiche actual characters, or at the very least easilly recognisable character types.

Every writer of comics uses archetypes at some point, even if only to subvert expectations.  Take that tool from the box and you lose pretty much everything of note except a few autobiographical GNs.

zombemybabynow

Good manners & bad breath get you nowhere

Jim_Campbell

Quote from: Professor Bear on 27 November, 2012, 03:03:34 PM
Bad example, Jim - I will irrationally defend Pat Mills, too!

Not irrationally, just with a massive double-standard. Either Morrison was within his rights to pitch a story for a character Moore didn't own but happened to be writing, in which case it was fine for Moore to do the exact same thing, or he wasn't, in which case neither was Moore. The key difference being that Morrison at least asked Moore if it was OK, something I will bet money that Moore didn't do with Mills.

Cheers

Jim
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

Frank

Quote from: zombemybabynow on 27 November, 2012, 03:13:10 PM
unconventional sex?  = In the ear?

Any sex act in which Moore was involved would meet the definition of unconventional. I'll never forget his use of the phrase "there was me, there was my wife and there was our girlfriend and we were all kind of living together" in an interview, and the shudder that ran through me at the thought of the tangle of frizzy hair and pliant gooseflesh conjoured by those words.