Luke Kirby

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

After Zenith, the second highest profile "lost" strip from 2000AD is surely (what became known as) The Journal of Luke Kirby.

I've been re-reading it recently and what I really love is the Ridgway art. Especially the black and white brilliance of Summer Magic (the only strip I actually remember from first time around).

It's a massive shame that copyright disputes prevent a reprint, but it's rather surprising that a deal hasn't been done. Alan McKenzie does not command a big fee in the manner of Grant Morrison, and Ridgway has already signed the rights back to Rebellion. Personally I would expect a modest cheque would probably clear any remaining obstacles.

The question of the third best lost strip is more vexing. Eliminating the Hilary Robinson material on grounds of quality are we left with Dan Dare? Or is there something else I've overlooked?

[SmallBlueThing]

The cursed earth episodes, surely? But yes, dan dare would be good, especially if tharg comissioned a ten page wrap-up as well.
SBT

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Not too bothered about the excised pages of the Cursed Earth. I read the rather lovely Titan hardback a few years ago and it worked wonderfully as it was.

A ten-page Dan Dare wrap up would be perfect. I know Rebellion don't own DD but it's not exactly a hot proepty these days and a sucessfully licensing deal shouldn't cost the Earth. Indeed, Knockabout managed it for Yesterday's Tomorrows...

[Emperor]

The question of the third best lost strip is more vexing. Eliminating the Hilary Robinson material on grounds of quality are we left with Dan Dare? Or is there something else I've overlooked?

Brigand Doom. The early stuff anyway

I wouldn't really count Dare as "lost" as a deal could be struck, as you say Rian Hughes managed it with the Revolver Dare. The only problem is when you start splitting the rights and money there might not be much to go around so not much of an incentive to collect it other than for posterity's sake (I can't imagine the earlier reimagined Dare would appeal to a lot of the hardcore Dare fans).

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

Oh yeah, Brigand Doom. Always liked the art, could never work out what the story was about. If a Luke Kirby agreement could be struck it would sensible to include this too and get a second book.

I haven't read the 2000AD Dan Dare in at least a couple of decades, and I don't recall liking it much (especially compared to the 80s Eagle version, which was brilliant) but it has to be worth revisiting. Given the big names involved (Dare, Gibbons, Bellardinelli, Mills, Finley-Day, etc.) a case files-style collection would probably sell quite well.

[Large48]

Luke Kirby art is wonderful up close even if the printers cut it off the backing board to fit it to the rollers!!!!! 

The Brigand Doom artwork is very different to, not many other pages that are done in the same style.

[Colin YNWA]

I didn't realise that Brigand Doom was lost in right hell as others are? Makes sense when I think about it just never heard it said before.

As for Hilary Robinson's work there's some great stuff there, okay some comfortably miss the mark but Medivac 318, in particular the first book which is quite brilliant at times and Zippy Couriers is really good fun. As with Brigand Doom I didn't realise this was tied up as well?

[Greg M.]

As for Hilary Robinson's work there's some great stuff there, okay some comfortably miss the mark but Medivac 318, in particular the first book which is quite brilliant at times and Zippy Couriers is really good fun. As with Brigand Doom I didn't realise this was tied up as well?

I seem to recall that Hilary Robinson had used some of her characters in fiction published prior to them appearing in 2000AD, and the strips remained creator-owned. (Can't remember the exact details - it's in Thrillpower Overload.) I would echo Colin's praise of Robinson - Medivac 318 is great, Zippy Couriers was a lot of fun, she wrote some enjoyable S/D spin-offs, and damnit, I like Survivor!

[IndigoPrime]

Mm. Some characters predated 2000 AD and I think the company just gave up and let her have the rights to everything. As for Alan McKenzie, everything he wrote is, in his mind, his property, at least as far as characters he devised. Given that he was editing 2000 AD at the time and commissioning himself under pseudonyms, it seems he found every loophole, and the publisher's contracts at the time must have been hopeless. (You'd think they'd have a clause that stated: "Write something for us and it's our copyright, Mr. Editor", but apparently not—at least according to McKenzie.)

With Kirby, in particular, it's a great shame. I'd love to see a trade of that book, along with more adventures. The world that had been created was very interesting and even the misstep of having artists other than Ridgeway take on the character didn't negatively impact on it that much. Gawd knows what McKenzie's thoughts are about the character. Clearly, he's at odds with Rebellion, which puts it into that limbo situation Zenith's in; but unlike Morrison—who you know full well would be able to sell a fuck-ton of Zenith on any publisher who printed it—can you really see Luke Kirby troubling the charts as an indie project? Far better to release it as part of the Rebellion 2000 AD books line.

[Colin YNWA]

Gawd knows what McKenzie's thoughts are about the character. Clearly, he's at odds with Rebellion, which puts it into that limbo situation Zenith's in; but unlike Morrison—who you know full well would be able to sell a fuck-ton of Zenith on any publisher who printed it—can you really see Luke Kirby troubling the charts as an indie project? Far better to release it as part of the Rebellion 2000 AD books line.

Yeah that's the bit that confusing me about Luke Kirby is what does Alan McKenzie benefit from holding it back. It might of course be a matter of principal, but given he was the editor at the time (and I'm completely on the outside saying this so could be completely wrong) he'd be on rockie ground there?

Ultimately its sad that this stuff doesn't reach the audience it deserves but you gotta figure that each party has its case to make.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

As I understand it the problem in all these cases is that there was an "unspoken agreement" that the publisher owned all the rights to 2000AD strips, but no actual paperwork to back this up.

I was reading recently that Tharg wanted to replace Robinson as writer on one of her strips and she took umbrage at this and instigated legal action, successfully, on the grounds she owned the copyright. I'm not sure what that achieved though except to ensure she never received another penny for her comic work.

I hope it's not the fear of losing other rights that prevents Rebellion from dealing with the disputes we know about.

[Greg M.]

I was reading recently that Tharg wanted to replace Robinson as writer on one of her strips and she took umbrage at this and instigated legal action, successfully, on the grounds she owned the copyright. I'm not sure what that achieved though except to ensure she never received another penny for her comic work.

Well, it made sure she didn't have to suffer seeing her strips bastardised and reduced to some kind of offensive parody of themselves, as would undoubtedly have happened (as per John Smith's recollection in TPO.)

[IndigoPrime]

Yeah that's the bit that confusing me about Luke Kirby is what does Alan McKenzie benefit from holding it back.

Reading between the lines, McKenzie appears to be on some kind of crusade of sorts, claiming everyone should have their rights to their work, regardless of the fact it was pretty obvious from day-one that every single thing you did for 2000 AD was work-for-hire. The ONLY thing I can sympathise with is creators not getting decent (any?) remuneration for reprint, which is par for the course for most publications these days, but certainly wasn't in the 1980s. (These days, every contract I sign essentially says: We can reprint this as much as we want, forever, for nothing. The better contracts revert copyright of my edit to me after a set period of time, which is usually about six months.)

It might of course be a matter of principal, but given he was the editor at the time (and I'm completely on the outside saying this so could be completely wrong) he'd be on rockie ground there?

Not really, although I still wonder whether McKenzie commissioning himself under pseudonyms was against company policy. At best, it was disingenuous. Plus most of his stuff was garbage, which didn't help. (Sonny Steelgrave's Dredds perhaps were the nadir.)

As I understand it the problem in all these cases is that there was an "unspoken agreement" that the publisher owned all the rights to 2000AD strips, but no actual paperwork to back this up.

We've heard all kinds of things, including that cashing the cheque was acceptance of rights transferral. These days, my commissions state that merely accepting the commission is enough for rights transferral. Things were clearly looser in the 1980s, but I still find it astonishing that there were no contracts at all for the work that was created.

I was reading recently that Tharg wanted to replace Robinson as writer on one of her strips and she took umbrage at this and instigated legal action, successfully, on the grounds she owned the copyright. I'm not sure what that achieved though except to ensure she never received another penny for her comic work.

As Greg said, I think that was justified at the time, and she also had some aspects of law on her side, because her characters and work predated their appearance in 2000 AD. I still think it's a pity Medivac didn't continue.

I hope it's not the fear of losing other rights that prevents Rebellion from dealing with the disputes we know about.

I think that's precisely the reason. If one of these cases goes to court and Rebellion loses, imagine the fallout: precedent will be set and a whole bunch of people will demand rights to their material back. For people still working on the Prog, that might not be the case, but there are loads of people who'd gleefully grab 'their' work back, including Morrison and Moore.

Still, even Morrison's stance is bonkers. Work with Rebellion and make some demands regarding remuneration and format. Replace crappy art with new art from Yeowell as part of the deal. But don't stop Zenith's appearance in trade because you're in hindsight wishing you'd never 'given away' the rights, despite having got paid for the story which assisted in propelling you into the position you're in now.

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

I can understand (although not endorse) Morrison's position on Zenith because he could probably make quite a lot of money out of trade editions that otherwise Rebellion would get. He also almost certainly doesn't need the money, so has no pressing need to take a "reduced" settlement.

I have no idea, however, what McKenzie is hanging on for. It could be that this is a point of principle, but if so it's a tad bizarre given as editor he could presumably have introduced creator-owned strips if he'd felt so strongly about it.

Robinson's point of principle was sound, but it was career suicide. Alan Moore can get away with that kind of stuff because he's such a big name, but for someone just starting out - and not really making much of a splash at that - going down the legal route was tantamount to resigning from comics.

In all these cases it's the artists I really feel sorry for.

And myself, obviously.

[Greg M.]

Robinson's point of principle was sound, but it was career suicide. Alan Moore can get away with that kind of stuff because he's such a big name, but for someone just starting out - and not really making much of a splash at that - going down the legal route was tantamount to resigning from comics.

For all that you suggest that Robinson wasn't making much of a splash (and I am very aware that her work is not highly regarded by the fanbase at large, even if I think differently) she was omnipresent in the 600s... she must have had at least one story in almost every prog of that era. Someone definitely liked her work.

As for the legal stuff, Robinson suggests Alan McKenzie was making her life difficult anyway and she had nothing to lose - she had previously been under Richard Burton's wing, but says in TPO that she found McKenzie too critical and implies she felt he was "unprofessional". She says she could "afford to make a stand" - she'd been warned by others that 2000AD wouldn't commission her again if she pursued a legal route, so she knew exactly what she was getting into. She clearly felt that her time at 2000AD was drawing to a close anyway, so had the opportunity to stand firm for her principles and prevent her characters being taken from her.

Obviously, there's two sides to every story, and it's unlikely McKenzie will give us his, as he has declined to be interviewed on the subject of his editorship in the past.